Map Improvements

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:50 pm

Very cool, especially the detail with the baronies.

Herr Doctor wrote:
Formable "kingdoms" map:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372534208-kingdoms.png
The title of the ruler of "Terra Mariana" could be "Master" (corresponding the historical Order's one).

The setup at the standard start of the game:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372537598-setup.png

I am not a big fan of the Terra Mariana thing. Can't Livonia be a good name for a kingdom in the area? Terra Mariana is something very Teutonic Order-ish. It's a term that defines the lands held by the Teutonic Order, a bit too anachronistic in an area that most certainly will not end up containing either a Teutonic Order, or any German for that matter. Or even Catholics. Unless Poland goes bananas.


For example, on the names issue, I noticed that generic Russian names use the form "ot" (от) that have never been used in surnames. When it was included in the mod it was probably designed to represent the conjunction "iz" ("из") but this one is also looks quite odd in surnames. Perhaps such names could be created automatically with suffix "-sky" (-ский) instead? For example: Pskov+sky=Pskovsky, Chernigov+sky=Chernigovsky, Novgorod+sky=Novgorodsky etc This is not ideal also because it would produce a lot of mistakes too (for example Moskva+sky=Moskvasky instead of correct Moskovsky, or Poltava+sky=Poltavasky instead of Poltavsky), but in my opinion it is still much better then just "ot" or even "iz" conjunctions.

This can be done easily, I believe. At least, as long as it works the same as the patronymics.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:52 am

Cèsar de Quart wrote:Very cool, especially the detail with the baronies.
I am not a big fan of the Terra Mariana thing. Can't Livonia be a good name for a kingdom in the area? Terra Mariana is something very Teutonic Order-ish. It's a term that defines the lands held by the Teutonic Order, a bit too anachronistic in an area that most certainly will not end up containing either a Teutonic Order, or any German for that matter. Or even Catholics. Unless Poland goes bananas.
Yes, Livonia is also an option. The area was always a problem in regard of the "kingdoms" since CK1. Personally I like Terra Mariana for two reasons: 1. it somewhat reflects the theocratic realm that historically existed in this area during medieval time, 2. it allows logically and historically to portrait Livonia and Prussia as the parts of the one "kingdom".

May be you can add a "special requirement" that it could be created only by Catholic powers then? Indeed, it would be unfair to the Pagans and Orthodox, but at the same time this has a certain historical background as none of them ever pretended to be a sovereign of such a large Baltic area prior to the Teutonic Order's expansion.

This can be done easily, I believe. At least, as long as it works the same as the patronymics.
I think this would look much better, even with the mentioned mistakes.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:49 pm

Should we make a separate thread for every "region" we revisit? So far I have done Germany and Italy (Italy is still WIP, and with Germany I'm happy with the results, but of course someone with greater knowledge of Medieval Germany will poke me in the eye for something. Looking forward to it. Seriously), but this thread will start getting confusing if we keep adding in countries.

I'll put a HRE map in the HRE thread, I think, and make a thread for Italy.

Poland and Hungary might not be so difficult, since we have extensive documentation of their county divisions and ruling dynasties from the 1300's onwards.

The rest of the Balkans will be hard, and I don't know much about them... so someone step out, please...
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:21 am

Several thoughts regarding the Iberian de jure kingdoms setup. Personally I really do not like the abnormally large Al-Andalus. Perhaps you can consider something more historically plausible reflecting both the Iberian kingdoms of the era and the periods of the Reconquista?

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:19 am

Herr Doctor wrote:Several thoughts regarding the Iberian de jure kingdoms setup. Personally I really do not like the abnormally large Al-Andalus. Perhaps you can consider something more historically plausible reflecting both the Iberian kingdoms of the era and the periods of the Reconquista?


Well, it depends on where are we going with the meaning of de jure lands, and the proper rendering of de jure drift. For instance, the Duchy of Zaragoza will prove to be a hard bone. It represents the Muslim kingdom of Saraqusta, but it makes no sense in a 1300 kingdoms map.

I like the setting of the map, I do. But we should see how these de jure kingdoms play out ingame. However, I do believe this splitting will make the Spanish reconquista slower and the Iberian crusades less brutal.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Naoki on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:45 am

Hmm, I'm just afraid of the requirements to form a kingdom, like for instance the Kingdom of Murcia would have as a de-iure duchy only the Duchy of Murcia? That's kind of a very easy kingdom to form Sad
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:13 am

Naoki wrote:Hmm, I'm just afraid of the requirements to form a kingdom, like for instance the Kingdom of Murcia would have as a de-iure duchy only the Duchy of Murcia? That's kind of a very easy kingdom to form Sad

Like Navarre. I agree that it might cause problems, but I don't see it as inherently bad, that a kingdom is easy to form. After all, El Cid might have crowned himself king of Valencia and few would have contested his claim. The king of Aragon started as the pettiest of the Pyrinean kings. And so on and so forth.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:22 am

Murcia in my opinion could be perhaps creatable only by the existing Iberian kingdoms but not by the local duchy; I mean only Castile, Leon or Aragon could create it, but not the Duchy of Murcia. As was mentioned this will allow more dynamic Reconquista in case if Aragon would expand (unhistorically) to this area. In addition it simply looks really wrong to make it part of Andalusia or Toledo from historical point of view.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:28 am

Cèsar de Quart wrote:Well, it depends on where are we going with the meaning of de jure lands, and the proper rendering of de jure drift. For instance, the Duchy of Zaragoza will prove to be a hard bone. It represents the Muslim kingdom of Saraqusta, but it makes no sense in a 1300 kingdoms map.
Yes, I noticed Zaragoza issue. Personally I prefer more retrospective approach, so perhaps the borders of this duchy could be changed a bit to feat the later history as well.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Naoki on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:10 pm

The Kingdom of Navarra is an already existing entity, so it follows different rules :-) I like the idea of introducing an extra condition for the formation of the Kingdom of Murcia
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:33 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:Well, it depends on where are we going with the meaning of de jure lands, and the proper rendering of de jure drift. For instance, the Duchy of Zaragoza will prove to be a hard bone. It represents the Muslim kingdom of Saraqusta, but it makes no sense in a 1300 kingdoms map.
Yes, I noticed Zaragoza issue. Personally I prefer more retrospective approach, so perhaps the borders of this duchy could be changed a bit to feat the later history as well.

Probably. The thing is that in the X-XIIth Centuries, the Regnum Caesaraugustanum was a real thing, and it stretched that far... but then Castile took it all, a war was fought and Aragon and Castile split it: Zaragoza to Aragon up to Calatayud and Teruel, while Soria and Molina remained in Castile.

How to portray this issue? Creating two duchies? The Duchy of Zaragoza and the Duchy of Molina/Soria? Or maybe making the Regnum Caesaraugustanum (the taifa of Saraqusta) a titular title controlling all that land, tied to Molina, Soria and Zaragoza?

Naoki wrote:The Kingdom of Navarra is an already existing entity, so it follows different rules :-) I like the idea of introducing an extra condition for the formation of the Kingdom of Murcia

Like not being king of anything, for starters. These kingdoms of Murcia, Toledo and Andalusia are to me, El Cid-like kingdoms. Fit for adventurers and crusaders.

Also, it will give Solo some room for imaginative, speculative heraldry.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by iago6666 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:57 pm

you can not use different de jure according to religion? (it will be good reason to start a fight)

other option:
you don´t need all the provinces to be part of some de jure.

the peninsular tradition, to add to the title of the monarch of the conquests made ​​(so, for example, the Kings of Leon and Castile were also "Kings of Toledo, Seville, etc..")
some map:

Some concerns about the map:
principat de Catalunya,kingoms of Valencia and mallorca
Algarve is over beja
Andalusia:divide it in Sevilla,cordoba,Jaen and Granada
Principado de Asturias,Señorio de vizcaya
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:12 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:Probably. The thing is that in the X-XIIth Centuries, the Regnum Caesaraugustanum was a real thing, and it stretched that far... but then Castile took it all, a war was fought and Aragon and Castile split it: Zaragoza to Aragon up to Calatayud and Teruel, while Soria and Molina remained in Castile.
I think in similar cases later feudal tradition should be also taken in account. So, we should give the AI a chance to "reproduce history" in a certain way with wars, dynastic marriages, rebellions etc. De jure titles could be considered an instrument to keep the game within a certain historical limits, shaping the political borders without being too much deterministic and anachronistic but still keeping the historical immersion.

Cèsar de Quart wrote:How to portray this issue? Creating two duchies? The Duchy of Zaragoza and the Duchy of Molina/Soria? Or maybe making the Regnum Caesaraugustanum (the taifa of Saraqusta) a titular title controlling all that land, tied to Molina, Soria and Zaragoza?
The titular duchy sounds like a wonderful idea (similar to the Duchy of Lower Lorraine now in the mod).  

Cèsar de Quart wrote:Like not being king of anything, for starters. These kingdoms of Murcia, Toledo and Andalusia are to me, El Cid-like kingdoms. Fit for adventurers and crusaders.

Also, it will give Solo some room for imaginative, speculative heraldry.
Yep, the Iberian realms heraldry and symbolism is damn magnificent and extremely interesting indeed. A lot of fancy things there. Smile


Btw, as Iago noticed, such things like "Kingdom" (duchy) of Jaen could be added as one of the petty Andalusian kingdoms, as well as Lordship of Vizcaya in order to allow possible expansion of Castile. They are both from later part of the game time frame (13th-15th centuries) but both look quite logical to be represented in some way in game.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:20 pm

I don't know about the nominal kingdoms of Andalusia created by Castile.

By the way, the mod "In Novo Iure" aims to be a very good recreation of de jure settings for all the mod's timeline. I think we should take a look.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?695081-In-Novo-Iure-Dynamic-de-jure-structure-and-improved-cultural-toponymy
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:51 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:I don't know about the nominal kingdoms of Andalusia created by Castile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Kingdoms_of_Andalusia
Smile 

Cèsar de Quart wrote:By the way, the mod "In Novo Iure" aims to be a very good recreation of de jure settings for all the mod's timeline. I think we should take a look.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?695081-In-Novo-Iure-Dynamic-de-jure-structure-and-improved-cultural-toponymy
Looks interesting indeed.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by iago6666 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:23 pm

I will try to  clarify the context Smile 

Initially the kingdoms of Andalusia or Andalucías were the three kingdoms reconquered in the 13th century by Fernando III El Santo, in 18th century, the term Andalucía also  refer to the Kingdom of Granada

hence the four Kingdoms of Andalusia were used since the middle of the 18th century.

These kingdoms were a territorial jurisdiction  of the crown of Castile since the reconquest to the territorial division of Spain in 1833.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:25 am

Herr Doctor wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:I don't know about the nominal kingdoms of Andalusia created by Castile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Kingdoms_of_Andalusia
Smile 


I meant that I didn't know what to do with them, I'm well aware of their existence. As Iago stated after you, they aren't real "kingdoms", they are administrative jurisdictions. Each kingdom had an Adelantantado Mayor, a Contador, a Justicia and several other offices and bureaucratic titles, as well as a special set of laws (very mild in Andalusia, never as complex and different as the Charters (or Fueros) of Navarre, León or the kingdoms of the Crown of Aragon).

However, Andalusia (or "the Andalusias") was a coherent enough part in itself that the Duke of Medina-Sidonia planned to declare secession from Spain aroung 1640, in the context of the great peripherical rebellions and the independence of Portugal.

The kingdom of Valencia has always been a problem to me. If we add a kingdom of Valencia de jure, we'd also have to include a de jure kingdom of Catalonia, and that would be too much. Titular kingdoms for Valencia and Catalonia might be enough.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:42 am

In my opinion four de jure duchies representing these "kingdoms" as part of the one de jure kingdom of Andalusia would nicely represent this.

I also considered Valencia (as de jure or titular kingdom) but this would make things a bit too complex.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:21 am

They are almost all there. Sevilla, Córdoba and Granada, Only Janén is missing, and it would be as easy as to detach Jaén and Úbeda from their duchy and make it the D. of Jaén. Plis plas.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Radetzky on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:
For example, on the names issue, I noticed that generic Russian names use the form "ot" (от) that have never been used in surnames. When it was included in the mod it was probably designed to represent the conjunction "iz" ("из") but this one is also looks quite odd in surnames. Perhaps such names could be created automatically with suffix "-sky" (-ский) instead? For example: Pskov+sky=Pskovsky, Chernigov+sky=Chernigovsky, Novgorod+sky=Novgorodsky etc This is not ideal also because it would produce a lot of mistakes too (for example Moskva+sky=Moskvasky instead of correct Moskovsky, or Poltava+sky=Poltavasky instead of Poltavsky), but in my opinion it is still much better then just "ot" or even "iz" conjunctions.

Sorry for digging this bit old post, but have to comment. Regarding the not quoted part about Baltic lands, Terra Mariana should be rather sort of second "Kingdom of Jerusalem", something not to be created by pagans.

I agree on eg. Moskovskiy as a definite improvement from the original, the dynasty name is still and you can't have Moskovskaya for a woman, unless there is such script possible. The actual patronyms need some checking as well, Lvovich instead of Levovich. Which reminds me that it saddens me to be unable to tell apart lesser and higher nobility names, so much for "Tsar Putyata" and similiar not very noble first names.

Edit: Now actually I found out that the female dynasty form won't be such big problem, considering the slavic dynasty names in native CK2 , eg. Slovensky.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:30 pm

This would be absolutely wonderful if script allows to do this. I do not have knowledge about particular game mechanics in this part, but would be willing to help with any historical or linguistic information (in case if such help would be required).
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:52 pm

One fairly handy map of british isles, further fortifiing my belief of exonyms, made by certain paradox forum user of name Ols.



This is of course based on 5th century situation and is to represent "brythonic reconquista" some players may like to do.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:33 pm

I was under the impression that Britons living in Logres / Lloegyr before the Roman conquest were not of the same culture type as the Cymri. Insular Celts and Brythons, but diverged, like the Irish or the Picts.

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Radetzky on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:43 am

Well, the whole pre-Roman period was quite messy in this area and the number of tribes make the identification harder, then again you are right that the Britons of Logres probably had more ties to continental Celts (such as the Belgae tribe) than those residing in area of modern Wales. I believe, with the system like this, it would make the reconquest much more immersive.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Radetzky on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:54 am

I, as a devoted defender of localisation exonyms (always ready to do research in this matter if some list was provided), have been wondering: Which level of titles should be in the national language and which should be in english? I've been studying César's spectacular map, where this problem has already shown. There is county of Ostfriesland/Tirol, but then there is Carinthia/Styria! Shouldn't there be some unification in this matter? While king and emperor level titles in native language may look unatractive (though Basilea ton Rhomaion would solve the Byzantine question for once), there will also be county-duchy problems like Niederbayern-Bavaria.
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Re: Map Improvements

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