Map Improvements

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by iago6666 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Maybe Occitan:
Dax(Dacs)
Bearn ( Bearn or Biarn )
Bigorra(Bigòrra)
comenges(Comenge)
Cosserans(Coserans)
Foix(Fois)
Carcassona(Carcassona)
Narbona(Narbona)
Besiers(Besièrs)
Labrit (Labrit )
Marsan(Marçan)
Bordeus(Bordèu)
perigord (Perigòrd)
Agen(Agen)
Armanyac (Armanhac)
Tolosa(Tolosa)
Turenne(Torena)
Aurillac (Orlhac)
Carlat(Carlat)
Lomanya(Lomanha)
Carcí(Carcin)
Albi (Albi )
Roerga(Roergue or Roèrgue)
Besiers(Besièrs)
Millau(Milhau)
Gavalda(Gavaudan, Gevaudan)
Vivarés(Vivarés)
Usès(Usès)
Melguell (Melguelh)
Nimes (Nimes )
Besiers (Besièrs )
Valença(Valença)
Aurenja (Aurenja) 
Arles (Arle)
Forcauquer(Forcauquier)
Provença(Provença)
Niça (Niça )
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:12 pm

iago6666 wrote:Maybe Occitan:
Dax(Dacs)
Bearn ( Bearn or Biarn )
Bigorra(Bigòrra)
...

A lot of unnecessary entries there Wink

I'll wait for Solo's input, since he's the Occitan expert here.

I've taken Evander's entries about Brittany into consideration and added Tregor and Dol, makign Porhoët landlocked. I'm considering making Porhoët extend to Rohan and rename the whole county Rohan, since, as far as I know, Porhoët is not a county or a fief, but Rohan is. And that's such a cool name too. Their family was also famous.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:22 pm

Actually Porhoët is a better name IMO, it was a name referring to the area, the rohan was the territory of the family (and therefore, the Rohan dynasty can be duplicated by the random noblemen born in an eventual couny of Rohan)
Also, the vicounty of Porhoët was split from the Rennes county way before the rohan family existed. The actual maison of Rohan descend from the vicounts of porhoët. And the rohan vicounty was created from territories from the both the Vannetais(gwened) and Porhoët. Plus finally, the "counts" of Rohan had the prestige/honor of counts because they were ruling the whole county of Vannes in the name of the duke (the original definition of a vicount).
to sump-up : a Rohan county is different from a Porhoët county.

Edit : And Porhoët was an actual historical subdivision :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comt%C3%A9_de_Porho%C3%ABt


Last edited by Evander on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by iago6666 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:23 pm

AHHH joder (Not problem8))good idea 
i used this from the occitan wiki:
Link
Evander how about the other translations?(i used the Brezhoneg wiki)
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:31 pm

iago6666 wrote:Evander how about the other translations?(i used the Brezhoneg wiki)
Breton names should be used only for the western part of Brittany, from the carolingian period, Vannes, Rennes and Nantes were under influence of the French nobility. It is considered that Alain IV Fergent (son of Havoise of Brittany, heir of the duchy in the 1066 start) was the last duke of Brittany fluent in Breton. Plus Breton was never speak in Nantes (but it was -- still is -- in the western part of the Nantes county like in Guérande)
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:31 pm

Evander wrote:Actually Porhoët is a better name IMO, it was a name referring to the area, the rohan was the territory of the family (and therefore, the Rohan dynasty can be duplicated by the random noblemen born in an eventual couny of Rohan)
Also, the vicounty of Porhoët was split from the Rennes county way before the rohan family existed. The actual maison of Rohan descend from the vicounts of porhoët. And the rohan vicounty was created from territories from the both the Vannetais(gwened) and Porhoët. Plus finally, the "counts" of Rohan had the prestige/honor of counts because they were ruling the whole county of Vannes in the name of the duke (the original definition of a vicount).
to sump-up : a Rohan county is different from a Porhoët county.

Edit : And Porhoët was an actual historical subdivision :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comt%C3%A9_de_Porho%C3%ABt

Good points, I'll leave it Porhoët then. Do you think there should be a county of Rohan?

Evander wrote:
iago6666 wrote:Evander how about the other translations?(i used the Brezhoneg wiki)
Breton names should be used only for the western part of Brittany, from the carolingian period, Vannes, Rennes and Nantes were under influence of the French nobility. It is considered that Alain IV Fergent (son of Havoise of Brittany, heir of the duchy in the 1066 start) was the last duke of Brittany fluent in Breton. Plus Breton was never speak in Nantes (but it was -- still is -- in the western part of the Nantes county like in Guérande)


Well, the Exonym feature will override all this and make the Breton counties' names Breton if the Duke if Breton and French if he's French. Sad
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:48 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:
Evander wrote:Actually Porhoët is a better name IMO, it was a name referring to the area, the rohan was the territory of the family (and therefore, the Rohan dynasty can be duplicated by the random noblemen born in an eventual couny of Rohan)
Also, the vicounty of Porhoët was split from the Rennes county way before the rohan family existed. The actual maison of Rohan descend from the vicounts of porhoët. And the rohan vicounty was created from territories from the both the Vannetais(gwened) and Porhoët. Plus finally, the "counts" of Rohan had the prestige/honor of counts because they were ruling the whole county of Vannes in the name of the duke (the original definition of a vicount).
to sump-up : a Rohan county is different from a Porhoët county.

Edit : And Porhoët was an actual historical subdivision :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comt%C3%A9_de_Porho%C3%ABt

Good points, I'll leave it Porhoët then. Do you think there should be a county of Rohan?
The founder of the rohan family was the third son of the count of Porhoët, he built a castle in the western part of Porhoët (mostly uninhabitated at that time) when he received it in heritage and called it Rohan. He was then known as Alain 1st, vicount of Rohan ... that was the start of the family. But he was also the vicount of Castelnoec and that was nothing more but a small barony. That plus the fact that the vicount of Rohan were ruling over he count of Vannes in name of the Duke of Brittany, i'd say the best way to represent the historical situation correctly would be to set Rohan as a barony under the Vannes county and give it to Eudon of Porhoët so that one of his cadet son would inherit it.
That region was very poor and shouldn't be able to overpower the coastal cities of Brittany.

Cèsar de Quart wrote:
Evander wrote:
iago6666 wrote:Evander how about the other translations?(i used the Brezhoneg wiki)
Breton names should be used only for the western part of Brittany, from the carolingian period, Vannes, Rennes and Nantes were under influence of the French nobility. It is considered that Alain IV Fergent (son of Havoise of Brittany, heir of the duchy in the 1066 start) was the last duke of Brittany fluent in Breton. Plus Breton was never speak in Nantes (but it was -- still is -- in the western part of the Nantes county like in Guérande)
Well, the Exonym feature will override all this and make the Breton counties' names Breton if the Duke if Breton and French if he's French. Sad
That should be dealt in latter stage of development. Names can be commented out anyway ! Smile
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Solo on Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:19 am

The occitan exonyms are already all in the landed_titles file, I may recopy them here if I have a minute in the week end (I agree it's not very important right now, plus the feature isn't working like it should in my opinion). They are usually quite different from the modern forms. The few additionnal ones wouldn't be much trouble either.

The map used in vanilla is made after the reference map for XIIth century France you can find in wikipedia (at the beginning of the rule of Philippe Auguste, can't remember the manual it was taken from though but I'm quite sure it was drawn after one). It's a very reliable all around base than can be followed although it's not constructed with balancing counties in a game in mind and often doesn't represent minor political entities where the frontiers are blurry (or there's not enough justification for it, I could give examples but that's not the point). They followed its frontiers rather accurately even if they merged a lot of things.

I think the only part they really didn't follow for some reason, is south eastern France, the kingdom of Burgundy. Otherwise I'd have used the same map as a base too (some of the corrections in SWMH are based on it obviously, or another rather similar reference map, although not everywhere, particularly in the south).

I've redrawn it last month in Canvas to serve as a comparison point if expanding or correcting was needed. So it's based on vanilla's projections (not DEIOU I mean) but it's not complete cause I had to shelve things and work on the pagan emblems part (that I keep expanding foolishly).
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:52 am

Solo wrote:The occitan exonyms are already all in the landed_titles file, I may recopy them here if I have a minute in the week end (I agree it's not very important right now, plus the feature isn't working like it should in my opinion). They are usually quite different from the modern forms. The few additionnal ones wouldn't be much trouble either.

The map used in vanilla is made after the reference map for XIIth century France you can find in wikipedia (at the beginning of the rule of Philippe Auguste, can't remember the manual it was taken from though but I'm quite sure it was drawn after one). It's a very reliable all around base than can be followed although it's not constructed with balancing counties in a game in mind and often doesn't represent minor political entities where the frontiers are blurry (or there's not enough justification for it, I could give examples but that's not the point). They followed its frontiers rather accurately even if they merged a lot of things.

I think the only part they really didn't follow for some reason, is south eastern France, the kingdom of Burgundy. Otherwise I'd have used the same map as a base too (some of the corrections in SWMH are based on it obviously, or another rather similar reference map, although not everywhere, particularly in the south).

I've redrawn it last month in Canvas to serve as a comparison point if expanding or correcting was needed. So it's based on vanilla's projections (not DEIOU I mean) but it's not complete cause I had to shelve things and work on the pagan emblems part (that I keep expanding foolishly).

I'd rather like to know what counties I didn't set right, what merges are not really convenient and what to do with the whole Arelat. For instance, the Venaissin or Orange, which one should be more important, or should I include the two?

Here's my last version of the map, still much to do:




Awaiting for your corrections.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Ixor_Drakar on Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:48 am

I see you added Avranches, I made the same suggestion in the SWMH thread.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:56 am

Should the Vexin English and French be merged? A lot of trouble was created because of the Vexin, so if it's split between France and Normandy it kind of looses potential for crysis.

Ixor_Drakar wrote:I see you added Avranches, I made the same suggestion in the SWMH thread.

I'm also considering adding Aumale, although a big bigger (taking out the eastward "horn" of Rouen)
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Ixor_Drakar on Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:17 am

France almost always takes back Normandy in every mod and vanilla anyways. The game is all about numbers and France trumps England in that respect. Now if tactics and marshal were made more important then a good Norman could beat a superior French invasion force.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:20 am

Ixor_Drakar wrote:France almost always takes back Normandy in every mod and vanilla anyways. The game is all about numbers and France trumps England in that respect. Now if tactics and marshal were made more important then a good Norman could beat a superior French invasion force.

I think that goes without saying: England will be made a bit stronger, but marshalry and tactics need to be bigger on battles.

Also, Aquitaine and Toulouse should be independent from France at game start, if we want to recreate Philip I's situation. Aquitaine might stay, since William of Aquitaine did assist to the king's coronation. But none of the other southern lords did.

We should see how games would unravel with an independent southern France. Probably Aquitaine picking on Toulouse and then breaking up thanks to Gravelkind, and then France taking the pickings.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Grallonsphere on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:54 pm

Ixor_Drakar wrote:I see you added Avranches, I made the same suggestion in the SWMH thread.

The Mont St-Michel barony should be moved to Avranches as well - it's in the Rennes province now.

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:57 pm

Now baronies and holders will be a nightmare of another kind Wink

Especially holders. Lucky enough, I have some holder files that I made for Thure's mod, for counts in Aragon and Occitania. 

About baronies, I feel confident enough (and I have enough material) to work on most of the Aragonese and Occitan ones, except maybe in Auvergne, Limousin and Provence. Castille and León, not a problem. The rest, well...
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:31 pm

The map looks neat !

However, again some points : 
- about the de jure duchies, I think Orléans deserves its own duchy (it was raised as a duchy in 1304 but the Orléans' families were extremely powerful back then) and the borders could look like that (number 3) (link) :

- about the Mont Saint-Michel, as a breton, it's painful to admit but it should go to Avranches, when Rollo got the Normandy he was really prodigal with it (even though the Bretons built it in the first place, as Cornwall has its own St Michael's Mount in the other side of the Channel) ... that makes me think that this site can be a holy site for both the catholic (there were/are pligrimages) and the celtic religions (if there is one) because it was originally a pagan site converted into a christian one.
- about the big counties like Maine and Anjou, I don't know or think there is a good solution except giving them some more baronies. The other subdivisions that can be found isn't really on the county level and not really in the CK2 timeline (in french : bailliages, sénéchaussées, présidiaux). They were more a XVIIIth century subdivision system but if there are no other options, it's better then nothing.
For instance, if you lack some borders, you can check this map (the region east of Toulouse) (link) :


Note:  When I see maps detailed like that I dream of the day where PDS will update the Clausewitz engine to use vectorial maps instead of the ugly .bmp file ! With a zoom like in the RUSE game.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:05 pm

The seneschalships in Toulouse and modern provinces in general are unnecessary, actually, since the Languedoc is viscounty galore. Lots of them to pick.

About Anjou and Maine, I agree: more baronies. I think we're usually still too locked on a EUIII mentality, when actually baronies are the actual provinces.

I'll look how can I organise the duchy of Orléans, although I'd like that Blois was part of the Duchy of Champagne so that things are a bit more in the "right direction". What to do with Paris anyway? Duchy of Paris? Letting it inside Valois? Or maybe a special coded duchy that is always the title of a Frankish king of France and also his capital? I say Frankish because I doubt that if William of Aquitaine or Raimond of Toulouse (or some German prince of the Empire) ever became kings of France, they would remain in Poitiers, Toulouse or their traditional capital, but a Frankish one would move to Paris, since it was already quite well established.

And yes, RUSE's map rocks. EUIV could benefit enormously of something like that. Imagine the possibilities. Painting your colours over the map would have never been so fun. It would beat the crap out of the Total War games.

I actually miss the lovely countryside view you had in CK1. You remember, the trees, that lonely church in the distance, the posting house... This and the feeling that the map was a big parchment with all the CoA's on it. It would be nice if they did like in Civ V, where you have a nice 3D view and you can also set a 2D map.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:31 pm

About the area around Paris, maybe just overriding the name of the duchy by "Île-de-France" can do the trick : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ile_de_france#H.C3.A9raldique
And if we are to display every baronies as counties then the game will definitely be slower than in vanilla ! Very Happy

For the capital of France, I don't know if there is a way to do that but Paris was defined as the fixed capital of Francia (it was Troyes long before a 867 start). So the actual owner of k_france should obtain the county of Paris and move his/her capital there (applicable for all the dejure vassals of the title) as even a protestant gascon had to come in Paris to be crowned and siege as king (i.e. Henri IV but that is a little off the CK timeline)

And about the future of the Clausewitz mapping, yeah, probably CK and EU series wouldn't really require a giant zoom like in RUSE but for the HoI series it would be really nice to be able to zoom from a satellite view to the very ground where you can move your regiments one by one like in the Total War series ... but then it would become a micro-management hell in multiplayer.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:54 pm

Germany is hard. I'm better off trying with England. For now I'm working slowly on Germany, using Google Translator to find out about obscure German grafs. Using mainly this nice detailed zoomable map:

http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0026

***

Oh and feel free to post barony proposals, of course. Try using the "code" or also the "spoiler" format, this way it won't take over the whole thread.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by iago6666 on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:21 pm

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:57 pm


The first one is a VERY good map! But it makes me wonder: did the Archbishop of Bordeaux really posess so much land in the "county" of Bordeaux? Maybe we should make him prince-bishop of the county.

Any plans for a realistic, historical set of bishoprics and arch-bishoprics? Titular titles for all real bishops, those that were and those that would be? (like the short lived bishop of Empúries or the would-be Archbishop of Toulouse?) Or at least make bishops worth the effort of making them like you, not just because of money reasons. They have huge social influence and political strings to pull. And yet the game treats them as secondary characters, moreso than women, and they are way too under-represented in the game (regarding what they do and can do. I mean, my wives have almost never caused any trouble, except for trying to kill some bastard son of mine. Almost never cheat on me, they hardly ever conspire against me or my intentions, they don't help that much... it's a pity to play Henry II and having almsot no feeling of being married to Alienor of Aquitaine)
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:49 pm

French duchies, including the duchy of Orléans. I don't know about Brittany, if it should remain one or two duchies. I think one duchy is a good call, no need for a pesky bishop of Tregor saying that the Duchy of Lower Brittany is rightfully his. When it's not.

I'm also not happy about the ahistorical Duke of Limousin or that of Lyon, but I think there's no alternative. And why not.

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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Evander on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:13 pm

About Brittany, what I was thinking to put a 2-duchies kingdom. The eastern one (Rennes-Nantes-Vannes-Porhoët) being the "Duchy of Brittany", the western one being whatever we want since it should be uncreatable (except if its still possible to have counties as dejure part of a kingdom but not a duchy) and a titular title "Marquis of Brittany" for the holder of the duchy of brittany in a 867 game start.
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:43 pm

Evander wrote:About Brittany, what I was thinking to put a 2-duchies kingdom. The eastern one (Rennes-Nantes-Vannes-Porhoët) being the "Duchy of Brittany", the western one being whatever we want since it should be uncreatable (except if its still possible to have counties as dejure part of a kingdom but not a duchy) and a titular title "Marquis of Brittany" for the holder of the duchy of brittany in a 867 game start.

Well, as long as it doesn't screw the legitimate duke of Brittany, it's ok. All these counts saying they have right to a duchy they should not have any right to...
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Re: Map Improvements

Post by Herr Doctor on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:17 pm

Hello.

Have been a long time fun of your great mod that completely transformed quite dull CK2 into real masterpiece.Smile Recently noticed that you have started to rework the map and I decided to contribute a bit as I have some quite specific historical specialization in region that is usually portrayed quite anachronistically - i.e. Baltics. The map the mod used in the last versions was not bad in general but still there were some mistakes and anachronisms: like doubled Trakai province with the Yotvingians occupying both of them for some reason, Yotvingians being "Lithuanian", the use of the 20th century's name "Dzukija", Slavic name "Zhmud" for Baltic Samogitia, many baronies names in Ruthenian lands used the names of the place that did not play any significant role during medieval time etc.

I made a general sketch with my propositions to make your work on this part of Europe a bit easier.

General map with the "counties" and formable "duchies" names:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372534230-duchies.png
- The big dots symbolises the main city of the county, the smaller ones - possible alternatives for the baronies names.
- The symbol "+" in some baronies names means important religious centre that could be transformed into ecclesiastical holding in game.
- I tried to be as historical as possible, so I used only the names from the contemporary chronicles and partly reconstructed ones by the historians of linguistics (for the Balts, especially Prussians). The names for the Ruthenian lands are in Old Russian (from the 11th-14th centuries chronicles).
- Additionally would be great if you can add a system changing names in the Baltics lands to German if they are conquered by the Germans or Scandinavians, similar to Iberian Reconquista system.
- And small "nota bene" on the titles: most of them could be just "duchies", except Russian (should be "principalities"), and may be also Samogitia that could be shown as "eldership" just for historical flavour.

Formable "kingdoms" map:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372534208-kingdoms.png
The title of the ruler of "Terra Mariana" could be "Master" (corresponding the historical Order's one).

The setup at the standard start of the game:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372537598-setup.png

Cultures setup:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372534216-cultures.png

Religions setup:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/26/1372534217-religion.png


Plus some sources I used, so it would make it easier for you to sort the things:
mediafire.com download/k619a0g821y8yky/maps_sources.rar


PS Also would be glad to help a bit with other stuff like finding a less anachronistic coat of arms for the Baltic region, as well as making some improvements for the names. If such help would be required of course.

For example, on the names issue, I noticed that generic Russian names use the form "ot" (от) that have never been used in surnames. When it was included in the mod it was probably designed to represent the conjunction "iz" ("из") but this one is also looks quite odd in surnames. Perhaps such names could be created automatically with suffix "-sky" (-ский) instead? For example: Pskov+sky=Pskovsky, Chernigov+sky=Chernigovsky, Novgorod+sky=Novgorodsky etc This is not ideal also because it would produce a lot of mistakes too (for example Moskva+sky=Moskvasky instead of correct Moskovsky, or Poltava+sky=Poltavasky instead of Poltavsky), but in my opinion it is still much better then just "ot" or even "iz" conjunctions.


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