Re: Map Improvements

by **iago6666** Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:12 pm

I think 6 is ok,maybe more for the two asturias,burgos(i dont know maybe Santodomingo de silos) ,Astorga (benavente)and navarra,for balance

I will start with portugal tomorrow or tonight I will write something

I have an advantage im galician I can read Portuguese

by **iago6666** Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:10 pm

what i found for the moment:

-Dinis's successor, Afonso IV (1325–1357), instituted a system of six official comarcas

Map Improvements - Page 2 Antigas_Provincias_Portugal

Map Improvements - Page 2 Antigas_Provincias_Portugal

that reflected a concrete definition of these regions:

Antre Douro e Minho, Antre Douro e Mondego, Beira,Estremadura, Antre Tejo e Odiana and Algarve(Could be duchies?,adding porto,bragança and lisboa?)

-Diocesis SXIV-SXV
Braga Porto Lamego,Viseu,Guarda,Coimbra,Evora,Lisboa e Silves

-Almoxarifes(similar to merindades)S XV:

Entre-Douro-e-Minho:
Ponte de Lima; Guimarães; Porto
Trás-os-Montes
Vila Real; Torre de Moncorvo Beira Lamego; Viseu; Guarda
Estremadura
Aveiro; Coimbra; Leiria; Santarém;Abrantes; Óbidos; Alenquer; Sintra
Alentejo:
Setúbal; Portalegre; Estremoz; Évora; Beja
Algarve:
Faro; Silves;Loulé

-Principal cities in SXIII
Map Improvements - Page 2 Anisio-image005

Map Improvements - Page 2 Anisio-image005

-Militares (as coudelarias):
Links:

PDF original article in portuguese

A poll of the 10 most representative castles

examples:

Links:

Castelo de Almourol
Castelo de Sortelha
Castelo de Bragança
Castelo de Guimarães
Castelo de Tomar
Castelo dos Mouros (Sintra)
Castelo de Santa Maria da Feira
Castelo de Ourém
Castelo de Óbidos
Castelo de Leiria
Castelo de São Jorge
Castelo de Montemor-o-Velho
Coordinates of the castles in google earth
More Links:
duchies in portugal

counties in portugal
marquisates

by **iago6666** Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:14 pm

Livro do Armeiro-Mor:(1509)(greater armorer book)

Conde de Penela (Vasconcelos e Meneses, 1471)
Noronha (Conde de Odemira, 1446)
Conde de Valença (Meneses, 1464)
Conde de Marialva (Coutinho, 1440)
Castro (Conde de Monsanto ,1460)
Ataíde (Conde de Atouguia, 1448)
Meneses (Conde de Cantanhede, 1479)
Pereira (Conde da Feira, 1481)
Melo (Conde de Tentúgal, 1504)
Silva (Conde de Portalegre, 1498)
Almeida (Conde de Abrantes, 1476)

Sala de Sintra:
Coats of arms from portugal organized by king Manuel 1469-1521
numbered from most important to least

A - Armas do Rei Dom Manuel I 3 - Castro 36 - Miranda
B - Infante Dom Yoam 7 - Castro (da Penha Verde) 6 - Meneses
C - Infante Dom Luis 63 - Cerveira 44 - Mota
D - Infante Dom Fernando 59 - Coelho 29 - Moura
E - Infante Dom Afonso 32 - Corte-Real 54 - Nogueira
F - Infante Dom Enrique 45 - Costa 1 - Noronha
G - Infante Dom Duarte 2 - Coutinho 47 - Pacheco
H - Infante Dona Isabel 8 - Cunha 10 - Pereira
I - Infanta Dona Beatriz 5 - Eça 46 - Pessanha
42 - Aboim 69 - Faria 57 - Pestana
27 - Abreu 18 - Febos Monis 64 - Pimentel
71 - Aguiar 61 - Ferreira 67 - Pinto
23 - Albergaria 53 - Gama 60 - Queiróz
14 - Albuquerque 65 - Góios 34 - Ribeiro
24 - Almada 56 - Góis 31 - Sá
16 - Almeida 68 - Gouveia 39 - Sampaio
15 - Andrade 21 - Henriques 62 - Sequeira
66 - Arca 33 - Lemos 52 - Serpa
4 - Ataíde 19 - Lima 13 - Silva
25 - Azevedo 49 - Lobato 48 - Sotomaior
58 - Barreto 30 - Lobo 9 - Sousa
55 - Bethancourt 40 - Malafaia 37 - Tavares
72 - Borges 17 - Manuel 20 - Távora
28 - Brito 38 - Mascarenhas 50 - Teixeira
35 - Cabral 41 - Meira 51 - Valente
43 - Carvalho 12 - Melo 11 - Vasconcelos
26 - Castelo-Branco 22 - Mendonça 70 - Vieira

Brasões da Sala de Sintra
research work by Anselmo Braamcamp Freire
Links
Volume 1
Volume 2
Volume 3

by **iago6666** Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:14 pm

Entre-Douro-e-Minho:
Ponte de Lima; Guimarães; Porto
Trás-os-Montes
Vila Real; Torre de Moncorvo
Beira:
Lamego; Viseu; Guarda
Estremadura:
Aveiro; Coimbra; Leiria; Santarém;Abrantes; Óbidos; Alenquer; Sintra
Alentejo:
Setúbal; Portalegre; Estremoz; Évora; Beja
Algarve:
Faro; Silves;Loulé

Conde de Abrantes 1476 Family Almeida Santarem
Conde de Alcoutim 1496 Family Meneses (Casa de vila real) Faro
Conde de Arganil 1472 counts bishops Coimbra* Estremadura
Conde de Arraiolos 1371 Family castro Alentejo evora
Conde de Atalaia 1466 Family Ataíde Santarem/ near Abrantes
Conde de Barcelos 1298 First Meneses latter Pereira near Ponte de lima?
Conde de Cantanhede 1479 Meneses Aveiro
Condado de Coimbra 871 /1064-->anexed to condado Portucalense 1096
Conde de Faro 1469 House of Bragança Evora *Faro do Alentejo not algarve
Conde da Feira 1481 Pereira Santa Maria da Feira Between porto and aveiro
Conde de Guimarães 1464 House of Braganza Guimaraes
Conde de Loulé 1471 Meneses house of vila real Loule
Conde de Marialva 1440 Coutinho Torre de Moncorvo/Guarda*more research needed
Conde de Monsanto 1460 Castro Guarda?
Conde de Neiva Viana do Castelo Ponte de Lima?
Conde de Odemira 1446 Noronha setubal?
Conde de Ourém 1370 Meneses/Pereira/House of Bragança Santarem
Conde de Portalegre 1498 Silva Portoalegre
Conde de Portugal 868 1095
Conde de Tentúgal 1504 Ferreira Montemor-o-Velho Coimbra
Conde de Valença 1464 Meneses Ponte de Lima
Conde de Viana do Alentejo Meneses 1373 evora?
Conde de Vila Nova de Portimão 1504 Castelo Branco,Vila Nova de Portimão.Silves?
Conde de Vila Real Meneses Vila Real

by **iago6666** Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:06 pm

Duchies:
Duque de Viseu 1415 Infante de Portugal Viseu Beira
Duque de Guimarães 1475 House of Bragança Guimarães Minho
Duque de Coimbra 1415 Infante de Portugal Coimbra estremadura
Duque de Bragança 1442 House of Bragança Trás-os-Montes
Duque de Beja 1453 second prince Beja Alentejo
Duque de Barcelos 1565 Barcelos Ponte de Lima? another option for minho
Duque de Aveiro 1547 Natural son of the King ,aveiro estremadura

marquisates:
Marquês de Ferreira 1533 1º conde de Tentúgal
Marquês de Montemor-o-Novo 1478 near evora Titular,only one marquis
Marquês de Santarém 1580 Estremadura we can use this to divide Estremadura in two counties
Marquês de Tancos 1751 6.º Conde da Atalaia
Marquês de Torres Novas 1520 linked to the duchy of aveiro
Marquês de Valença 1451 * linked to the count of Ourém
Marquês de Vila Real 1489 maybe titular the county was created in 1424
Marquês de Vila Viçosa count of Arraiolo 1455

by **Cèsar de Quart** Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:58 pm

Ok, that will be hard to go through. I'll try making a comprehensive map of Portugal tonight and then we'll see what we can correct and adjust.

by **iago6666** Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:18 pm

Arabian toponomy:

الأشبونة al-ʼIšbūnaḧ. Lisbon, Portugal
باجة الزيت Bāǧaẗ az-Zayt. Beja, Portugal.
برتقال Burtuqāl. Porto; Portugal
شلب Šilb. Silves, Portugal
شنتريا Šantarā. Sintra, Portugal
شنترين Šantarīn. Santarém, Portugal
شنتمريّة الغرب Šantamariyyaẗ al-Ġarb. Faro (Santa Maria), Portugal
قصر أبي دانس Qaṣr ʼAbī Dānis. Alcácer do Sal, Portugal
قلمريّة Qulumriyyaḧ. Coimbra, Portugal
مارتلة Mārtulaḧ. Mértola, Portugal
يابرة Yāburaḧ. Évora, Portugal

al-Ġarb Algarve

---------------
Reino do Algarve Link
--------------

711-750 Califato Omeya
- Valiato de Al-Ándalus
750-756 Califato Abasí
756-1013 Califato de Córdoba
1013-1044 Taifa de Badajoz, Taifa de Mértola, Taifa de Saltés, Taifa de Silves y Taifa de Algarve.
1044-1051 Taifa de Badajoz, Taifa de Sevilla, Taifa de Saltés, Taifa de Silves y Taifa de Algarve
1051-1063 Taifa de Badajoz, Taifa de Sevilla y Taifa de Silves
1063-1091 Taifa de Badajoz y Taifa de Sevilla
1091-1094 Taifa de Badajoz e Imperio Almorávide
1094-1144 Imperio Almorávide
1144-1145 Taifa de Santarém, Taifa de Silves, Taifa de Mértola
1145-1146 Taifa de Badajoz, Taifa de Silves, Taifa de Badajoz.
1146-1147 Taifa de Badajoz, Taifa de Silves, Taifa de Tavira, Taifa de Mértola
1147-1150 Taifa de Silves, Taifa de Tavira, Taifa de Mértola
1150-1151 Taifa de Silves, Taifa de Mértola, Califato Almohade.
1151-1250 Califato Almohade

**In the SXIV Tavira becomes the most important city of the Algarve,conquested in 1242, in 1282 D Dinis bestowed rights and privileges equal to those of Lisbon on the alcaide (mayor) and seamen of Tavira

by **iago6666** Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:30 am

job_chancellor_portuguese=Chanceler-mor
job_marshal_portuguese=1ºCondestável/2ºMarechal de Portugal/3ºAlferes-mor
job_treasurer_portuguese=Vedor da Casa/Tesoureiro-mor/Vedor da Fazenda
job_spymaster_portuguese= Mestre dos espiões/ Sobrejuiz do crime /Ouvidor do crime
job_spiritual_portuguese=capelão-mor

title_chamberlain:Camareiro-mor
title_monsignor:capelão da Casa Real
title_keeper_of_the_great_seal:**Chanceler-mor was the keeper of the great seal/guarda do selo real
title_master_falconer:Falcoeiro-mor
title_court_jester=Bobo da corte

title_keeper_of_swans=Guardião dos Cisnes**does not exist maybe replace it with Caçador-mor(Fowler)

title_master_of_the_horse= Estribeiro-mor
title_grand_butler=Trinchante
title_high_almoner=Esmoler-Mor
title_cupbearer=Copeiro-mor
title_master_of_the_hunt=Monteiro-mor
title_seneschal=Mordomo-mor

by **Cèsar de Quart** Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:47 pm

I think The Prince and the Thane avoids excessive localisation except when absolutely necessary because there's no good translation of the term.

I guess the Hungarian Nádor of Hungary counts as one; although it was called Palatinus in Latin, this translation doesn't really fit the concept of Nádor, a mix between a maior domus, a chamberlain and a prime minister. More the latter than anything else...

An exception would be the always fictional "spymaster", whose function was usually the Chancellor's or the Favourite's responsibility and that it usually fell down to his second in command or right hand. That's why I used "Protonotarius" in the Catalan row, because it's one of the Chancellor's right hands, and also a likely candidate to be some kind of spymaster. Although I also used the office of "Mestre Torsimany", torsimany being a translator specialised in the figurative translation of juridical texts, which made the School of Translators a spionage powerhouse if its leader was on someone's pocket.

But that's for another thread.

For now I'll try to base the map of Portugal on the several counties and family holdings, and on bishoprics when this proves insufficient.

by **iago6666** Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:35 pm

sounds great,but not forget the cities,Lisboa,Porto and Evora were the more populated.

all the counties are de-jure and their names are places,
they not thought it too much.if they were us.. Wink

by **Cèsar de Quart** Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:52 pm

Sorry, but I didn't understand what you meant there. What is de jure, the counties you gave or the counties from Vanilla?

by **iago6666** Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:13 pm

sorry my English is not very fluent.those who i wrote

by **Cèsar de Quart** Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:10 pm

Ok, here's what I got:

Map Improvements - Page 2 2vp1

Notes:

I could not fit all counties, of course, but I tried to get inside those that were either more important or earlier in time. For Central and Southern portugal I followed the bishoprics and this map of military order domains:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Orders_of_knighthood_Iberia.svg/1000px-Orders_of_knighthood_Iberia.svg.png

Red is Santiago, purple is Calatrava, green is Alcántara, pink is Templars and light pink is Portuguese Santiago. Yellow is Montesa + Sant Jordi.

Some new counties, I'm not sure if they deserve to be there. Barcelos could be easily merged into Braga and make the counts of Barcelos the counts of Braga. I'm also unsure about Tentúgal.

Sorry about the quality, I'm having problems with imageshack.

by **Cèsar de Quart** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:01 am

On second thought, Portugal may have too many provinces this way. Tentúgal and Barcelos out, Marialva, Serta and Vimioso probably too. They are kind of arbitrary. Marialva and Vimioso are counties, earlier than what's usual (most were created around 1450), and they are there to give the Counts of Portucale a bit of extra power.

I'm happy about the rest, but may other voices be heard!

by **Evander** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:24 am

Sounds good to me. What is most important IMO is the balance of power between the titles so that the historical situation can evoluate plausibly since the historical accuracy may render certain characters/titles unplayable.

by **Cèsar de Quart** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:51 am

Evander wrote:Sounds good to me. What is most important IMO is the balance of power between the titles so that the historical situation can evoluate plausibly since the historical accuracy may render certain characters/titles unplayable.

I know, but that's what I'm not that good at.

Right now the Count of Portucale seems more powerful than the king of Galicia, which is not a bad thing. But the "to be" king of Portugal, even without Lisboa and the central areas of the country, will be as powerful, or more, than the King of León, and that doesn't seem right. The king of León was always the most powerful.

I guess we can play with this map and add or take holdings out. León was a big city, that on top of that got an autonomous government of citizens. A charter, so to speak. León could have more holdings than the usual. The King of Aragon is more powerful, so he can take on the Hudids all by itself, but he'll do just fine if he allies with Barcelona, that now would be the other powerhouse of the Peninsula. Maybe too much, but if we follow the "new rules" regarding titles, Barcelona will be a titular title, and the Catalan counts will rebel like the plague. Although this could have dire un-historical consequences.

In any case, Castile and León own most of the lands they hold, whereas Barcelona doesn't, he owns three counties, and the others are all in the hands of old dynasties.

I guess the key is playing with the holdings.

by **iago6666** Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:56 pm

Fernando I left Garcia Galicia and the Parias of Badajoz and Sevilla
He left Alfonso Leon and the paria of Toledo
And last he left Sancho and the paria of Zaragoza.

The map done by paradox does not reflect the political situation.i think is a good idea to enhance Leon and especially Castile

Sancho Defeated his cousins Sancho Sancho IV of Navarre and Sancho of Aragon in the War of the Three sanchos.later he teamed up with alfonso to conquer Galicia but Sancho then turned on Alfonso and defeated him(From Sancho wiki).

About Leon a vague tradition had always assigned the title of emperor to the sovereign who held León.but Leon was Leon Galicia and Asturias,then Galicia was divided in two,(Portugal de-facto independent)and the Christian kingdoms expanded to the south,and the power shifts toward Castile.

About the Map i really like what i see,maybe one more province in the algarve if you thougth to make it a titular kingdom(if it can only be created by the king of portugal)Maybe Tavira or Loule.The most populated area is the north(according to the
pdf i linked in one of my previous post the minho area were the more populated in the SXIV)

Leira:
It was the setting of several cortes (feudal parliaments) 1254,1372,1376,1438.D. Dinis and Joao I had royal palaces in leira

Ourem:
during the Reconquista served as watchpost for the Castle of Leiria,The county was created in 1370 and was linked to the house of Baraganza,Afonso de Bragança (first Duke of Braganza 1402-1460) had a period of great development.
I see the two options valid,depends on what you want to do,realistic county titles or centers of power,

I think is similar with Marialva and Lamergo.(the legendary Cortes of Lamego, where it was made the acclamation of D. Afonso Henriques as King of Portugal and established the "Rules of Succession to the Throne." , was a diocesis too and was one of the more important cities).

Vimioso::
Vila Real would be a better option if he had not founded in 1289,Vila Real was once known as the "Court of Tras-os-Montes," due to the high number of family Coats of Arm in their houses, It housed more members of the royal family during the Middle Ages than any other settlement in Portugal except Lisbon,and is the home of the house of Vila-Real.(can be changed the name of a province with an event?)

Pd que curro te felicito tio,que chulo el mapa

by **Cèsar de Quart** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:23 am

iago6666 wrote:
About the Map i really like what i see,maybe one more province in the algarve if you thougth to make it a titular kingdom(if it can only be created by the king of portugal)Maybe Tavira or Loule.The most populated area is the north(according to the
pdf i linked in one of my previous post the minho area were the more populated in the SXIV)

I tried to add in Loulé, but it was too stretchy. If the Algarve needs more provinces then I might merge the counties of Alvor, Portimao and Loulé into one, Loulé. They are all side by side.

Leira:
It was the setting of several cortes (feudal parliaments) 1254,1372,1376,1438.D. Dinis and Joao I had royal palaces in leira

Ourem:
during the Reconquista served as watchpost for the Castle of Leiria,The county was created in 1370 and was linked to the house of Baraganza,Afonso de Bragança (first Duke of Braganza 1402-1460) had a period of great development.
I see the two options valid,depends on what you want to do,realistic county titles or centers of power,

I think is similar with Marialva and Lamergo.(the legendary Cortes of Lamego, where it was made the acclamation of D. Afonso Henriques as King of Portugal and established the "Rules of Succession to the Throne." , was a diocesis too and was one of the more important cities).

Leiria it is, then. Ourem can be a barony, in any case.

Vimioso::
Vila Real would be a better option if he had not founded in 1289,Vila Real was once known as the "Court of Tras-os-Montes," due to the high number of family Coats of Arm in their houses, It housed more members of the royal family during the Middle Ages than any other settlement in Portugal except Lisbon,and is the home of the house of Vila-Real.(can be changed the name of a province with an event?)

I wanted to add Vila Real because it was an important title, but of course, the city was founded too late into the game... so I had to look for an alternative; to leave Viseu as it is and look for another county elegible for northern Portugal, in this case Vimioso.

Pd que curro te felicito tio,que chulo el mapa

Gracias.

by **Cèsar de Quart** Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:02 pm

While waiting for further discussion on Spain, I moved into France because I get bored easily.

The following question pops up into my mind: how passable is the Massif Central? Should there be some kind of impassable frontier in the Rhône valley? Some ridge there that is way too difficult to pass through?

by **Evander** Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:17 pm

The Lozère department (the old Gévaudan, known for its beast) is very impracticable even today (still the least populated department in France - the whole population could be contained in the Stade de France) so the Cévennes ridge could be an impassable ridge.

Probably out of CK2 timeline, but it could be necessary to put the cévennes as impassable since this region was a very important stronghold position for the huguenots (french protestants) but also of the cathars. So this impassable ridge would split the languedoc from the northern part of occitania which is interesting since these 2 regions are very different.

Edit : The impassable ridge could also go as north as the Vivarais.

by **Solo** Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:37 pm

It's completely passable and quite populated. As for the valley here, the mountains that border it are extinct volcans that don't raise higher than 500 meters high. They were perfect for castle building though : I don't think there's many places that makes its network of castle so visually striking by standing out in the landscape (you have to get on top of one to see them though).

The massif central is a really large moutain range, covering a vast area (probably a good quarter of the kingdom in 1066). Only the central part (Lozère, Velay, Ardèche etc) is elevated enough to be considered problematic for troop movement but there's still a high number of passes and we're not speaking of high altitude either : because it's far older than the Pyrénées and the Alps, it's more like a plateau and its highest peaks don't even reach 2000 meters.

Today it's just not the place to be car sick.

by **Solo** Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:09 pm

I live next to Ardèche (modern Vivarais) I can assure you there's nothing impassable here, even with a car.

You can't compare modern and medieval populations of these areas. Population just moved to better living locations but the feudal system both required and allowed a more regular network of settlements on the territory.

Nowadays, having a castle protecting you 1000 meters high isn't really a necessity and the lack of a supermarket or the need to go around any mountain to get to it, has become more important than any other consideration. But in the past people have been living in the Massif Central for a long time. If Vercingetorix could make 200 thousands soldiers cross the massif to face the roman army up north, I don't think medieval armies could be considered any less capable.

Plus any impassable ridge in those moderate elevations would mean you'd have to place many many more in Europe. You'd have to add dozens of them in the Alps sub ranges alone for example : if you think the Vivarais or Cevennes are impassable, try the Vercors or Chartreuse, you still go around them today.

by **Cèsar de Quart** Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:12 pm

Ok, here's my first draft. Now shoot.

By the way, as a small wink to Solo, most names in Occitania are in Catalan. Mostly because I'm not sure of how should they be named correctly, so I'll let him point at the right terms.

by **iago6666** Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:48 pm

Cesar Aachen isnt germany?
i´m sure you know it,then to do somenthing usefull i will write the Breton names of Brittany:
Nantes(Naoned)
cornouaille(Bro Gernev)
Penthievre(Penteur)
Leon(bro Leon)
Vannes(Gwened)
Porhoët(Pourc'hoad)
Rennes( Roazhon)

by **Evander** Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:26 pm

Brittany provinces borders shape still bothers me :
- SWMH 2.74 already added the Trégor (between Léon and Penthièvre) so that's work already done
- The Porhoët literally means "through-the-forest" and its lords never owned any coastal region, it should be landlocked between Penthièvre, Rennais (Roazhon) and Vannetais (Gwened).
- For gamey reasons, the Dol region should be under the Rennes county (Dol as bishopric of Rennes county), the Dukes of Brittany tried several times to raise the bishop of Dol as Archbishop to balance the power of the Archbishop of Tours (under french rule) to settle an independant breton church.
- ... or the Dol bishopric could be another province ? (with religious settlement as main settlement)

Another region : the south-west, I found this map :
Map Improvements - Page 2 Map_fr_duchy_of_Gascony_1150

Map Improvements - Page 2 Map_fr_duchy_of_Gascony_1150

Some vicounties could be forgotten, some like tursan weren't very important. But the map is a good one for this region.

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