Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed May 22, 2013 4:12 pm

Solo wrote:I guess I've hit some kind of a road block. In order not to have muslim rulers use those titles I need to use the arabic toponyms. Well no problem, took me a good day's work to put them all ingame, my eyes and fingers still hurt from so much editing but it's done.

Only now I have that ugly bug that makes both the latin and arabic names display on top of each other in a few counties (Jaen, Setubal, Huesca, probably a couple others). I've spent a few hours trying to figure out why, discarding all reasons I could think of and I'm now ready to admit I'm close to giving up. Even if it's a vanilla bug, I can't seem to think of a workaround so this is ruining the whole thing of course.

Damn. What's the side way? Leave these without exonyms?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by iago6666 on Wed May 22, 2013 5:33 pm

Can you upload the code?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Thu May 23, 2013 2:02 pm

The problem is with the mod folder I think so this really a huge disappointment. If I turn off the bugged ones it won't change much since the bug will just affect new entries that weren't before (Guadalajara and Teruel will only bug if I remove the other buggy ones).

So this has to do with the new counties in SWMH and the mod folder probably not handling the list correctly. I've tried to put the mod's map folder in the root folder but it doesn't do the trick either.

Also I can't seem to be able to change the marquisate form for maghreb africans so this is all very glitchy at the moment. Really having a muslim marquis of Los Velez in 1066 will not work for me, at all.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Thu May 23, 2013 7:59 pm

Solo wrote:The problem is with the mod folder I think so this really a huge disappointment. If I turn off the bugged ones it won't change much since the bug will just affect new entries that weren't before (Guadalajara and Teruel will only bug if I remove the other buggy ones).

So this has to do with the new counties in SWMH and the mod folder probably not handling the list correctly. I've tried to put the mod's map folder in the root folder but it doesn't do the trick either.

Also I can't seem to be able to change the marquisate form for maghreb africans so this is all very glitchy at the moment. Really having a muslim marquis of Los Velez in 1066 will not work for me, at all.

No, it really won't... Such a shame. What to do? Leave them untouched, duchies as they are, or go back to territorial, generic names.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by iago6666 on Thu May 23, 2013 8:13 pm

Make them titular with culture/religion requisites is not a option..
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by idib816 on Thu May 23, 2013 10:55 pm

I think the best solution is to make de jure duchies avaiable to muslims only and set the peerage system as a titular one starting when a big portion of spain is in christian hands. After all those duchies didn't really exist until they were set on paper. Then there could be some kind of event making them de-jure instead of the original duchies.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Fri May 24, 2013 3:40 pm

I think the game may have a limit on the number of translation displayed on the map or something like that. I've checked a number of possibilities (even tried with different fonts) and I can't seem to pinpoint the problem. It may also affect only counties so I'd probably deactivate all county endonyms everywhere on the map (including vanilla ones, it's just not satisfying if neighbouring SWMH counties aren't part of it anyway) and just have other ranks using the system.

Using titular titles only for the southern duchies in the peninsula would indeed solve the marquisate title problem (it may just be me, not being able to code it properly) but I bet there are also christian title holders in the history files too, like El Cid for Valencia. What would happen in that case ?

Also, if there's no way to code custom title forms for other cultures, it will affect any conquest made by muslims outside their starting area. Let's not forget the early start date with TOG and the fact that even Provence was just liberated from muslim raiders in 1066 (and there's a marquisate in Provence). So it's not that far fetched that they would grab mediterranean coastal land even in a 1066 scenario, having abbeys, monasteries or marquisates turn to an arabic cultured holder.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri May 24, 2013 4:08 pm

This early "The Old Gods" start date is going to be a nightmare. I would much rather not have it at all, since the 800's have nothing to do with the 1100's.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Fri May 24, 2013 4:15 pm

I can only agree but I can also see a lot of people expecting it for the mod too so we're gonna have to accomodate them. My only hope is that PI fixes a couple glitches in their game at the same time : those counties endonyms being bugged but also for example the inability to predefine non christian emblems (well if they don't do it TOG will be a big visual mess and knowing them they won't).
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by idib816 on Mon May 27, 2013 5:35 am

Yeah it's a bit of a mess when you give a title a custom localisation. Anyhow the way I see it is that muslims should get the initial de-jure titles and then once spaniards get their hands on them there will be the chance to create those titular titles and slowly assimilate them into their respective kingdoms via event. So yeah we should probably start an internal thread about this so you can tell me exactly what's up and I can get the coding done.

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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by idib816 on Mon May 27, 2013 8:06 am

Well, looks like TOG is going to fix all those issues Smile

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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Fri May 31, 2013 12:10 am

Per our agreement with SWMH any direct or indirect change to anything remotely map related isn't allowed.

I've reverted the arabic toponyms for the iberian holdings and cancelled any other change there (so no renaming of duchies and no additionnal title I'm afraid, sorry Cesar).
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:42 pm

Okay, reopenning this now we've said our piece and the disagreement is public.

So the plan is.

A peerage system works with events and additionnal titles. This is the part Idib will have to do when he get to this. For now since it may not be the priority over doing a compatible version we'll let the duchies just as they are, only the emblems have changed so far. In the long run, only christian rulers will be allowed to use the peerage titles and only non-christian the traditionnal ones.

So it's Emirate of Murcia for example or duchy of Murcia if it's a pagan conquest (no nonsense here I think) but the christian rulers will have to get through the peerage system to create the marquisate of Villena in the case of Murcia.

For the endonym it's still a debate. The last SWMH (and maybe earlier versions, Idib just didn't include them and I didn't check first then got my attention diverted halfway done with the SWMH drama) had all toponyms coded in so I just did some redundant work (with minor differences in spelling).

So bottom line is, we have them at our disposal and could use them if needed (I would perhaps correct the formatting and spelling to be simplified and uniformized if we used them, at least now that we consider it allowed).

Maybe a good halfway solution would be to use them on holding levels only to avoid having the map looks too much unfamiliar and just strange sounding but that may be too much worry I don't know.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:23 pm

So you're suggesting that no de jure duchies are possible in Spain for Christians? It's accurate to a point, but a bit extreme. It can work, though.

Expect a flood of questions in the main forum from people asking "why can't I create the duchy of Valencia".

If that's the case, then we need more titular duchies, and some special duchies to ensure that adventurious conquests are possible. El Cid is always the tricky example, after all he was very close of being king of Saragossa instead of Valencia.

Talking about Saragossa brings on another issue: the Regnum Caesaraugustanum, the Kingdom of Saragossa as the pre-XIIth Century spaniards understood it, encompassed Saragossa, Molina and Soria. Later, when Alphonse the Battler died without issue, the king of Castile conquered all of the Kingdom of Saragossa, taking it away from the Aragonese. When Ramon Berenguer IV became ruler of Aragon, the king of Castile gave Saragossa back, but not Molina and Soria.

This is a case of "de jure drift", in game terminology. Only de jure drift didn't only happen by core system, after 100 years. It also could happen by treaty. When Castile and Barcelona made a pact to attack Navarre and Aragon and share their lands, they also fixed the limits of each other's Reconquista. Would that be considered a de jure fixing by treaty? I think so.

It basically enlarged Castille's and Barcelona's theorical reach. All of this made much more sense when Muslims were unplayable, now we have to take them into consideration too...

But an event in Spain simulating the Treaty of Cazorla and the former and subsequent treaties to divide Muslim Spain among them (or among some of them...) could signify interesting, plausible game development.

After all, the kingdom of Andalusia is there for the early game, if you want to play adventurer. But in the long run, it should normally disappear if uncreated. What better way than having one of those Treaties to fix the limits of each other's Reconquista?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Bad_haggis on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:45 am

Cèsar de Quart wrote:So you're suggesting that no de jure duchies are possible in Spain for Christians? It's accurate to a point, but a bit extreme. It can work, though.

That's quite similar to what I have planned in my own mod. Non-Romans would be the only ones who can form duchies within in Roman Empire (or Western part anyway).

It'll likely be a pain to organise though, and it's probably easy to exploit (lots of weak counts and weak dukes instead of a few powerful dukes, because Dukes won't expand to their De Jure size).

That's why I'm looking into a way to tie the formability of those Duchies (by the Romans) into a date, or event that occurs on a date. After that, the Titular title will be destroyed by a decision, and De Jure titles ducal titles can be handed out.

Might work with Spain too, with a "Reconquista" event that makes them formable by Christians?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:59 am

How would "holy war for X" work then? It's the only source for real Reconquista, a holy war. Or we'll have to go county per county?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Bad_haggis on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:03 am

Let Muslims form them?

At least then Christians would be able to Holy War Muslims, and Muslims cannot to Christians (which is fairly accurate, the Muslims stopped being expansionist after the fall of the Umuyand dynasty).

So then Muslims can only use border CBs and Jihads.

I don't know if Muslims forming them would mess it up though, if Christians were able to Usurp the titles, then the whole system would break.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:14 am

Hmmm... I guess we'll have to test it and see what happens. The idea of Spanish and English noblemen not being able to be anything else than counts (or earls) until the XIVth Century is exciting. Accurate and challenging.

Just look at the Courts summoning procedures, in which they list the people by order of hierarchy. First, the King. Then the Infants and his close relatives. Then, counts. The Count of Urgell, the Count of Empúries, the Count of Pallars, later the Counts of Prades and Cardona...

After all, until Ferdinand II the Catholic rose the County of Cardona up to a Duchy, there was no Duke in Aragon that was not member of the royal family. We're talking 1490's. The Duke of Cardona was the first duke in Aragon that was not integral part of the House of Aragon (although he was very related to them)
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:03 pm

damn forum ate my post :/

We have time to discuss the form and the extent of this. This is what is great and priceless with the input in here, because unilateraly modding can do so much when you step outside your comfort zone.

We have to take gameplay into account so it has to work with reconquista of course. The game and the mod also almost always represent concept of titles rather than the full really of them (which is impossible to represent with the simple mechanics of a game, the case of the duchy of Normandy has already been put forward to illustrate that). So we have to take that into consideration regarding the christian duchies that would still be allowed to christian rulers (not too far fetched and plausible but the form can be flexible).

In that regard it would be interesting to start thinking about the form that would take the previous county rank for Barcelona if the duchy of Barcelona was to be renamed to its historical form.

For the interesting treaty event part of the suggestion, we'll have to see what Idib think is possible. I think it would be a good thing to start considering what would be the earliest date allowed for the formation of many duchies that represent the classic CK2 timeframe, and even the late medieval middle ages. The opposite is true (Marquisates of Gothia and Septimania would be good examples but I'm not sure the other way around is possible to control without headache and decision coding.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by idib816 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:12 pm

Once you've laid down all the fundamentals I can definitely figure out a way to code it.

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