Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

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Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed May 15, 2013 7:06 pm

This is to deal the problem of having ahistorical territorial duchies, and to create appropriate titular peerages.

Well, I have been giving Spain a bit of character by altering the name of the territorial duchies, as we discussed in the Paradox forum. Which means I've given it new heraldry too.

In order to avoid having ahistorical "dukes of Toledo, La Mancha or León", and to have actual duchy-tier titles, some concessions must be made. First, to use duchies in Spain way before the first duchy was created. Second, the "promotion" of lordships, marquisates or counties that were the paramount titles of grand magnates.

Fist: There were no duchies in Spain in the French sense. The early Counts of Barcelona sometimes intitled themselves Dux Gothiae or, once, Dux Cathalanorum, but that's an anecdote. Other dukes keep popping up here and there, but nothing serious and nothing that lasts. The first Marquis was the Marquis of Villena, created for Don Manuel, son of Ferdinand the Saint of Castile. The first dukes appear usually as second sons or Infantes, close members of the main royal branch. The first one in Castile is the Infante Enrique, Duke of Medina-Sidonia, created in 1445. In Aragon, the Duke of Girona, Dukes of Montblanch, etc, and are mainly an imitation of French ducal titles, so prestigious.

So in order to make the territorial duchies fit and not be named in modern or ahistorical manners, we can take duchies from the 1520 list of Grandees, which are counties, lordships and marquisates elevated to duchies in the mid-late XVth Century. Very late, I know, but that's all we have.

It's this, or either to make territorial duchies be named after the magnates of that area. Thus, the Duchy of Sevilla becomes the Duchy of Ponce de León; the Duchy of Galicia becomes the Duchy of Castro; the Duchy of Catalunya Nova becomes the Duchy of Montcada, etc.

The second choice is ahistorical, but less so than having duchies of La Mancha and León. However, I prefer the first choice. Here's the list of what should it be like (improved since the last time), in which some duchies will depend on whether you maintain the Grandees as added in SWMH, which I approve, or you decide to remove them:

Zaragoza - Luna
Teruel - Híjar
Navarra - County of Lerín
Catalunya Nova - Montblanch (Cardona if no titular Grandees)
València - Tricky one. Either València, Sogorb (if no titular Grandees, Gandía)*
La Mancha - Duke of Arjona or Count of Melgar, given to the Enríquez, although not of hereditary condition.
Badajoz/Extremadura - Marquis of Priego (if no titular Grandees, Alburquerque)
Segovia - Marquis of Cuéllar
Sevilla - Arcos (if no titular Grandees, Medina-Sidonia)
Granada - Marquis of Los Vélez*
Murcia - Marquis of Villena
Toledo - Escalona (if no titular Grandees, Alba de Tormes)
Córdoba - Count of Montalbán
León - Béjar (if no titular Grandees, Infantado)
Castilla - Count-Duke of Benavente (if no titual Grandees, Medinaceli)
Galicia - Count of Lemos

*The Valencian and Granadine question arise from the fact that if some adventurer would take the title, they would have a mostly wrong name. For instance, if El Cid intitles himself Duke of Valencia, he'd be Duke of Sogorb, which doesn't go much with de vibe of El Cid, or some other conqueror. Since these things don't happen, mostly, I'd play it safe and leave it as I propose, only with Valencia as Valencia for in case someone wants to play as El Cid.

This is the most accurate list I could prepare. Some of those duchies were actually marquisates (Villena, Cuéllar...) or counties (Lerín, Lemos, Melgar...) but their size was vast, their prestige higher than average titles of their tier and their owners were the most powerful magnates in Castile, León and Aragon.

These, of course, would be the titular Grandees included in SWMH (and I would prefer to leave them, and even expand it, but we better discuss it further):

Cardona, for the House of Cardona.
Gandía, for the House of Borgia.
Medinaceli, for the House of Medinaceli, former House de la Cerda.
Medina-Sidonia, for the House of Pérez de Guzmán, later called the House of Medina-Sidonia.
Alba de Tormes, for the House of Álvarez de Toledo.
Infantado, for the House of Mendoza, magnates in Asturias, Old Castile and León.
Alburquerque, for the House de la Cueva.

To which I would add:
Duke of Frías, for the House of Velasco, that controlled most of Cantabria and La Rioja.
Marquis of Astorga, for the House of Osorio, Galician magnates.

What do you think?







Last edited by Cèsar de Quart on Wed May 15, 2013 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Wed May 15, 2013 7:16 pm

I've started adapting some things from the last emails you sent me but didn't reach the point of renaming duchies or anything yet. I have to go to my sister's right now so I'll reply in detail when I come back but you know I agree the whole system needs to be reworked because those sounds silly in the first place and the historical titular titles fits the context of reconquista better in the iberian peninsula.

I'm reaching the point when all the counties will have their emblem (Villena is still missing for sure, probably a couple other ones I'll check and list them when I come back) and it will be time to round up the duchies and make something completely coherent.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed May 15, 2013 7:27 pm

For Villena, the arms of the House of Don Manuel, very fun canting arms: a winged hand holding a sword (although you probably know that already)

The name "Manuel" already suggests a hand ("mano"), and the wing must come from the lands he held, the Land of Alarcón and Almansa, both containing the name "Ala", ("wing").

Similar to the House of Alamany (Ala + , Winged Hand). I think canting arms are not that common anywhere else in Europe. Except maybe in some parts of Central and Northern Italy.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Wed May 15, 2013 11:31 pm

I don't know why I hesitated about those. Sold for Villena.

Alarcón, Alcaraz (although one of these two could probably work with the cross of Calatrava in inverted colours, even if that's not the most elegant solution ever) and Talavera also still are vanilla ones. For Tudela I wasn't really sold on Tarazona and the shoe.
I will also probably change Castellon to something else, maybe placing the arms of Aragon in chief I don't know. Murcia isn't terribly good either, the crowns are the modern arms of the city but well if there isn't anything obvious it will probably still.

I really don't want to use quarterings or any other modern partitions unless it's absolutely necessary so most duchies should have arms that can be adapted to look consistent with everything else (it's not absolutely forbidden but still I'd like not to have parts of the map looking like they are already well into the XVth century while their neighbours are still stuck somewhere in the middle of the XIIIth century). Obviously I have Medinacelli in mind when I say that. Well that may be tough to follow as a strict rule with a list of duchies created in the late middle ages (if not later) so we'll see, let's keep an open mind.

It's not a problem to have duchies called marquisate or county, but in the case of a county it may force to rename any county with the same name (for ex county of Toulouse/county of Toulouse). Less likely to happen here but still I think Lemos would be in that case.

That makes me think of Montblanch. What's the link between the family using the same arms with the mount "fleurdelisé" (or flordelisado I should say since it's both so characteristic and unique to catalan heraldry) without the palé and the later dukes of the royal dynasty ?
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Thu May 16, 2013 12:05 am

I don't know why I hesitated about those. Sold for Villena.

Yeah, they're very nice arms.

Alarcón, Alcaraz (although one of these two could probably work with the cross of Calatrava in inverted colours, even if that's not the most elegant solution ever) and Talavera also still are vanilla ones. For Tudela I wasn't really sold on Tarazona and the shoe.
I will also probably change Castellon to something else, maybe placing the arms of Aragon in chief I don't know. Murcia isn't terribly good either, the crowns are the modern arms of the city but well if there isn't anything obvious it will probably still.

For these two, Alarcón and Alcaraz, I've been looking for choices and I have found nothing at all. La Mancha was a desert, and a parage for petty nobility and hidalgos. If you wonder why Don Quijote is from there, wonder no more. It was the most depressed part of Spain and it still is.

For the Duke in La Mancha, the duke of Arjona, I planned the arms of the House of Enríquez, a scion of the kings of Castile. No symbol is appropriate for La Mancha since it never had one. The Dukes of Arjona were actually set in northern Jaén, wich borders La Mancha and is the closest thing I could get.

For Alarcón, you could use some colour variation of the arms of Don Manuel, the winged hand. Canting arms, and it was also associated with the House of Villena.

But let me go check tomorrow some books at my university. We have a compendium on Spanish nobility, I might find some families based there and get some basic heraldry. Don't get too excited, they'll probably be cauldrons, wolves or bezants.

For the Duke in Córdoba, Priego, you could use the simple bars of the House of Fernández de Córdoba, or and gules.

As for Castelló... well, you can always use the arms of the House of Centelles, one of the powerful families in the late XIVth Century. Either that, or the Cross of Montesa, remembering the Maestrat (Montesa would make a good county, by the way) of Montesa.

I really don't want to use quarterings or any other modern partitions unless it's absolutely necessary so most duchies should have arms that can be adapted to look consistent with everything else (it's not absolutely forbidden but still I'd like not to have parts of the map looking like they are already well into the XVth century while their neighbours are still stuck somewhere in the middle of the XIIIth century). Obviously I have Medinacelli in mind when I say that. Well that may be tough to follow as a strict rule with a list of duchies created in the late middle ages (if not later) so we'll see, let's keep an open mind.

For Medinaceli, you might not have a choice. For most of the others, there are "more primitive" arms. You already set some of them. You used simplified arms of the Fernández de Guzmán, counts of Niebla, for the Duke of Sevilla, and of the Ponce de León for Cádiz. The ones I passed you were more or less "calm" partition-wise. Except for Murcia, in which I used the arms of the royal Aragonese house of Villena, and features some of the most crazy and taste-less partitons I've ever seen. And for Cardona, yes, that's a complicated one too, but considerably nicer, and I also sent you a "reduced" version of it with the more-or-less-late arms of the family, the three cards or.

For the Grandees, I'd leave their arms as they are, complicated if need be, since we add them so that they represent these very families that we all know and love (oh, the murderous Duke of Alba... how do they miss you, the Dutch kids) and to bear their proud, late heraldry. Still, your call.

That makes me think of Montblanch. What's the link between the family using the same arms with the mount "fleurdelisé" (or flordelisado I should say since it's both so characteristic and unique to catalan heraldry) without the palé and the later dukes of the royal dynasty ?

None at all. The duchy was created merging parts of the former marchs of Tortosa and Lleida, mainly the mountains around Montblanch, and the heir got the rents of the city. The method for naming new titles in Catalonia (in Aragon too, I think) was usually to name the title after the biggest city. The Duke of Girona, the Lord of Balaguer, the Count of Cervera, they all follow that rule. And anyway, very few titles were created before the XVIth Century, mostly they recreated old ones (like the County of Osona) or new families bought impoverished titles and lavishly filled them with new prestige The House of Montblanch and the Duke of Montblanch only share the name, as far as I know.

I understand that it can break the general appearance of the game, but in this case, the arms of the Dukes of Montblanch are very elegant. Still, if you want to look for an alternative, you have three choices:

- Go with the mount fleurdelisé argent.
- Use the devise of the House of Montcada, who held Tortosa and Fraga for the XII and XIIIth Centuries (maybe change the name of the title to Montcada too, but that might be one stretch too many).
- Change the general shape of the duchies so that Barcelona stretches to Tortosa but a new duchy is born out of Rosselló, Empúries and Girona: the Duchy of Girona. Its arms are known and simple. Bad news, they're the same as València. Or, two pals gules.

You have yet another choice still: use the arms of the original heir of Aragon to be Duke of Montblanch, the Infant Martin: Aragon, a label argent. Of four points. I think I sent it to you too. It might be a bit too "royal", and if we have to add it royal, I'd prefer the one from the line of Ribagorça (the quartered in saltire), but it's your call.

Tomorrow I'll have something on La Mancha. Later I'm off to Montpellier, La Clapa, but I'll be back soon enough to try being helpful again.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Thu May 16, 2013 6:46 pm

Well, La Mancha is a god-forsaken desert. I could find no relation of great magnates that could be identified with La Mancha, it seems it was an everyone-gets-a-piece land for magnates based on upper Castile and León or in lower Andalusia (Córdoba, Jaén and Granada). It wasn't even constituted a kingdom (like Jaén, Granada, Córdoba...) It was shared by the Kingdom of Toledo and the Kingdom of Murcia (administrative kingdoms inside the Crown of Castile, not at all real "royal titles" like those inside the Crown of Aragon).

It was mainly set in very small tennantships dependant on greater magnates, Santiaguist castles (belonging to the Order of Santiago) and realengo, royal land and villages.

For one thing, however, was La Mancha a place of some renown: for its fields of pasture, reason why the Mesta (a very powerful corporation of sheep ranchers, a herdsmen guild of sorts, one of the most powerful and rich guilds in Europe) had a lot of presence and weight there. It might also be one of the reasons why there's almost no trace of great magnates there: the Mesta wanted it mostly free of agriculture and the king supported always the Council of the Mesta.

The creation of the Right, Honourable Council of the Mesta would be a nice idea for a Castillian-Leonese decision. Quite a bit more income, less manpower (herding is not good for agriculture or population growth, plus the ranchers were exempt of any military service) in mostly plain counties. They also had free rights of passage and paid almost no taxes. The king got its benefit from trade. Castillian wool was very appreciated in France, Flanders and the Rhine. The Mesta was an assurance of Castillian wool's low prize in comparison to English wool.

Also, it was a bit like the CHOAM company, if you know the Dune series. The King rewarded his loyal subjects with positions inside the Mesta, making them very rich in the process. For most of the XIVth Century, the House of Mendoza controlled half of its high positions almost hereditarily.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Thu May 16, 2013 7:10 pm

I've simply used the winged dextrochere for Alarcon and the cross of Calatrava for Alcaraz, both in different colours of course. As it turns out I was also missing something for Ibiza and Menorca so I've used the arms of Guillem de Montgrí and Ramon Muntaner, both featuring the monte flordelisado.

I will put an archive together with all the new entries since the last update so you can get an idea of the current progress.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Thu May 16, 2013 7:20 pm

mediafire.com ?p7r6162r1wpr8ud
Just paste everything in the mod's flag folder
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Thu May 16, 2013 11:05 pm

I think I'm gonna go with the four point lambel for Montblanch. If there's a need for a duchy of Girona the arms with two pals would fit better there I think. They are indeed similar to the county of Valencia but I would simply replace those with the arms of El Cid (currently the duchy) and would add a border of castles to the arms of the duchy.

Some of the titular duchies have the same arms because they are created for the same families (Codoba, La Cueva, Pacheco) so I'll have to adapt things thinking of heraldry ahead.To make things worse there's a titular kingdom of Valencia which I didn't notice until now.

I will probably keep the same design for the titular catalan kingdom and will have to think of something for Valencia. I like the idea of using the square shield for the area so maybe that's the starting point. If the arms of Valencia aren't needed for Girona then or two pals gules, and the arms of Vivar in heart would probably make an elegant solution for the kingdom.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by idib816 on Thu May 16, 2013 11:38 pm

I agree with the reshaping, let me know if you need any help.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri May 17, 2013 6:14 am

Solo wrote:I think I'm gonna go with the four point lambel for Montblanch. If there's a need for a duchy of Girona the arms with two pals would fit better there I think. They are indeed similar to the county of Valencia but I would simply replace those with the arms of El Cid (currently the duchy) and would add a border of castles to the arms of the duchy.

Some of the titular duchies have the same arms because they are created for the same families (Codoba, La Cueva, Pacheco) so I'll have to adapt things thinking of heraldry ahead.To make things worse there's a titular kingdom of Valencia which I didn't notice until now.

I will probably keep the same design for the titular catalan kingdom and will have to think of something for Valencia. I like the idea of using the square shield for the area so maybe that's the starting point. If the arms of Valencia aren't needed for Girona then or two pals gules, and the arms of Vivar in heart would probably make an elegant solution for the kingdom.

The castle bordure might be too much Castile, and since Valencia tends to be outside Castile's area of influence, I'd prefer to have a bordure of pieces gules and or, this way it's a reference to both Castile and Aragon because of the tinctures.

I like the idea of Vivar for Valencia, and I like most of the new heraldry you've drawn. Some, however, are too similar to the Grandees, but it's fine.

I realise I forgot about Salamanca, in which case maybe it's better to do:

Duchy of León > Marquisate of Astorga (given to the House of Osorio)
Duchy of Salamanca > Duchy of Béjar (given to the Zúñigas, but the Sandovals were also powerful there).

I'll give more detailed input after I come back. Take care!
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Fri May 17, 2013 2:15 pm

One thing I'd like to respect is having the newly named duchies still be geographically based in the de jure duchies they replace. Ureña and Priego wouldn't fit for Extremadura following that logic. So, I was thinking of using Albuquerque despite the titular title already existing but making it a county for that de jure part, leaving the duchy rank for the titular title.

La Mancha will probably be more complicated but I'll see if I can find something.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat May 18, 2013 10:03 am

About Extremadura, I agree with what you were saying, and I did try to keep geographical sense of it. La Mancha and Extremadura were the only ones that posed serious problem. I agree on having Alburquerque as territorial duchy in Extremadura. You can maybe change the titular Grandee of Alburquerque into the Duchy of Frías.

About La Mancha... awful situation. I'd go for Arjona because it's the closest magnate to La Mancha and the only one that's a bit more Medieval than the rest.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Sat May 18, 2013 3:53 pm

I've drawn the last missing entries (Mendoza, la Cerda, Velez etc) so this should be almost complete. I had to adapt a few things even for the grandees so everything is more of an extrapolation/adaptation than the exact emblems of the first holders. I can't just use modern León (lion in gules) and France (trinity design) when the titles they refer to are represented in their ancient forms (purple and semé) for example.

In any case I'm satisfied with the end result and I think the overall look of the peninsula has vastly improved.

I went with Benavente for León but still made the emblem for Astorga so it could eventually be added to the list of titular titles.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Sun May 19, 2013 4:56 pm

Okay last step, I need to create a timeline for the titular titles :

D. of Alba de Tormes
D. of Medina Sidonia
D. of Frias
D. of Medinacelli
D. of Infantado
M. of Astorga

Obviously it can't be the historical dates but can't be from the start either. Also I don't think anything should be restrained much beyond 1337 (1350 to make it a round number) so it should span over a century or so before that date. I would put everything to 1300 but that's a bit lame gameplay wise.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon May 20, 2013 10:14 am

Why do you need a timeline for them? They had no "bearer" before the 1450's aprox and they don't really need it. Maybe the Marquis of Astorga, but those titles' point is to have great magnates resembling those of actual history.

If you do need it, however, I can start putting together some lists as soon as I return home.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by iago6666 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:09 am

Sounds great what you're doing
But what happens if santiago becomes an archbishopric(the third holiest city in Christendom),can you make a titular title with a Cross of saint James?

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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Mon May 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:Why do you need a timeline for them? They had no "bearer" before the 1450's aprox and they don't really need it. Maybe the Marquis of Astorga, but those titles' point is to have great magnates resembling those of actual history.

If you do need it, however, I can start putting together some lists as soon as I return home.

By timeline I mean a ranking between the six titles, not their holders. Right now they are all creatable in 1066 and that doesn't represent title inflation in any way, it just gives the area more duchies than everywhere else right from the start. I could make all of them creatable in 1300 but like I said it's a bit lame that they would pop all at the same time. I'm not even sure on what ground this order could be established so it could a 1300 for everybody in the end.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Mon May 20, 2013 12:53 pm

iago6666 wrote:Sounds great what you're doing
But what happens if santiago becomes an archbishopric(the third holiest city in Christendom),can you make a titular title with a Cross of saint James?

I'll think about it
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Mon May 20, 2013 1:49 pm

Okay I think this is how I'll do things for all peerage because I don't want the system to be too arbitrary :

After 1200 the dates would be compressed by a factor of two. The most recent title in the list is the duke of Aumale created in 1547, which is really, really far off the timeframe. That would put its creation date in the mod to 1374. As I said I'd prefer not restricting anything after 1350 so that would be rounded to that date. Other english dukes creation dates would span from 1251 to 1322 in that system (1301 to 1444 historically).

The six spanish titles would range from 1290 to 1346 following that rule while their historical creation dates range from 1380 to 1492.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by iago6666 on Mon May 20, 2013 2:30 pm

-Guzmán el Bueno founder of the house Medina Sidonia(1256-1309)born in leon but Medina Sidonia is the most important noble housse of andalusy in the late middle ages

-Alonso de Borja y Cavanilles, Calixto III (Torreta de Canals, Reino de Valencia 1378-1458)Borja is a municipality in the province of Zaragoza,his father
(Domingo de Borja)participated in the conquest of Valencia with Jaime I,settled in Jativa and later in Gandia,After they were known as Borgias(italian name)

-Bernardo de Bearne(?-1381)bastard son of Gaston Phoebus, Count of Foix XII.The king Enrique II give him the title of count of Medinaceli
Its name refers to the Castilian-Leonese town of Medinaceli, in the province of Soria and originated the name of the house of Medinaceli.
Married with Isabel de la Cerda,she was granted large estates by Enrique II of Castile on the condition that she relinquish all claim to the Crown of Castile for herself and her heirs.(Her paternal grandfather was Alfonso de la Cerda, heir to the throne of Castile but disinherited in favor of his uncle, Sancho IV of Castile.) The Medinaceli dukes had extensive estates in the Spanish provinces of Soria and Guadalajara.

-Gutierre Álvarez de Toledo(1376-1446)(Alba de tormes near Salamanca), bishop of Palencia and Archbishop of Seville and Toledo, obtained the lordship of Alba de Tormes from Juan II(1429),After inherited by his nephew(Count of Alba de Tormes in 1438),his son becomes duchy with Enrique iv in 1472

- Iñigo López de Mendoza (1398 Carrion de los condes,near palencia 1458 Guadalajara)Marques de Santillana(1458),resided in guadalajara as Señor of Hita y Buitrago his son Diego Hurtado de Mendoza y Suárez de Figueroa(1417-1479)guadalajara,II Marques de Santillana(1458) is the first Duke of the Infantado

-Diego Ruiz de Velasco(señorío de la Casa de Velasco), who lived in the year 1115 ,Velasco continuously appear as rich men and counts in the environment of the kings of Asturias, León and Castile.

Pedro Fernández de Velasco y Manrique de Lara(Burgos 1425-1492),Constable of Castile.(In 1473 Enrique IV of Castile made the title hereditary for the Velasco family).Was made Duque de Frias in 1492

-Pedro Fernández de Castro(?-1342 Algeciras)Señor de Lemos,arguable the most noble Family in Galicia,Filled the Gap left by the Traba in the SXIII.
Enrique II was first a Count of Lemos and then the castro ,who were his successors as counts, acquired power linked to him.

Alvar Pérez de Castro(1310-1380)First Constable of Portugal
Pedro Enríquez de Castilla(1352-1400)Constable of Castille
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue May 21, 2013 12:30 pm

The Borgias bought the title Duke of Gandia from the King of Aragon. Before that, the Duchy of Gandia was created by Martin the Humanist, king of Aragon, for his relative Alphonse the Old, Marquis of Villena, Count of Ribagorça and Dénia.

The title passed to his son Alphonse the Young, who turned Gandia into a cradle of culture and arts. He died without issue, and after some conflict and being temporarily held by the powerful Hug the Stern, Count of Cardona, the Duchy ended up returning to the Crown.

The Borgias did not live in Gandia. The title was purchased by the second Borgia Pope, the famous Alexander VI, for his son Pedro Luis de Borja, as a way to release the King of Aragon of his debts with the city of Valencia, of which Alexander VI had been Bishop, and where he'd place his other son Cesare. The Duchy of Gandia and its lands and revenues was one of the debt's guarantees as given by the King.

***

Speaking of which, the counties of Lleida and Tortosa should be Marquisates, unless you want to turn them into the counties that would appear there (County of Prades in Tortosa and County of Cardona in Lleida). But I don't think that's a good idea.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by iago6666 on Tue May 21, 2013 5:27 pm

I summarized the wiki, trying to help with the chronology
in the entry in spanish says that "familia noble, con origen en el pueblo aragonés de Borja y establecida en Játiva, reino de Valencia, y posteriormente en Gandía"
is the wiki , you have the reason sure.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue May 21, 2013 6:02 pm

iago6666 wrote:I summarized the wiki, trying to help with the chronology
in the entry in spanish says that "familia noble, con origen en el pueblo aragonés de Borja y establecida en Játiva, reino de Valencia, y posteriormente en Gandía"
is the wiki , you have the reason sure.

Well, they did live in Gandia once they purchased it, but before acquiring the title they lived in Xativa and Valencia. The wiki explanations makes it look like they moved to Gandia and then they got the title, when the Duchy was actually older and belonged to the royal House of Aragon before the Borgias.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

Post by Solo on Wed May 22, 2013 2:35 pm

I guess I've hit some kind of a road block. In order not to have muslim rulers use those titles I need to use the arabic toponyms. Well no problem, took me a good day's work to put them all ingame, my eyes and fingers still hurt from so much editing but it's done.

Only now I have that ugly bug that makes both the latin and arabic names display on top of each other in a few counties (Jaen, Setubal, Huesca, probably a couple others). I've spent a few hours trying to figure out why, discarding all reasons I could think of and I'm now ready to admit I'm close to giving up. Even if it's a vanilla bug, I can't seem to think of a workaround so this is ruining the whole thing of course.
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Re: Peers and grandees, dukes and magnates.

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