Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by vandaley on Wed May 29, 2013 12:01 am

Pls when you get around of doing Croatian dynasty coat of arms add Frankopan one. Here are some samples from history:





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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri May 31, 2013 3:53 pm

Solo, can you give us a peak on Byzantine heraldry? I'm dying to see what you've come up with.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Solo on Fri May 31, 2013 4:13 pm

Right this is what the template looks so far.

Orthodox template preview

It's really more focused on the Roman empire rather than Russia, the french and italian influences are clear about that.

No ingame version yet although I have a first concept for the new pagan frame to show.



Of course it's not meant for muslim characters, just the result of a test.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri May 31, 2013 4:30 pm

Solo wrote:Right this is what the template looks so far.

Orthodox template preview

It's really more focused on the Roman empire rather than Russia, the french and italian influences are clear about that.

No ingame version yet although I have a first concept for the new pagan frame to show.



Of course it's not meant for muslim characters, just the result of a test.

Veeeeeeery nice. I expected something more "late roman" than late byzantine, more based on the Notitia Dignitatum, but it's very nice anyway. The Pagan layout looks good too.

Have you considered working on Western Slavic "runes"? Polish families seem to use them extensively, but I'm unaware of their origin.


Last edited by Cèsar de Quart on Fri May 31, 2013 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by firelordzuko on Fri May 31, 2013 4:33 pm

Polish heraldry is something entirely different due to the clan arms. I seem to remember that the runes you mention are pre-Christian symbols adapted into arms, called Hausmarken in Germany. Essentially, runic symbols identifying a family that used to be carved into a house's doorframe. I'd have to look it up to be certain, though.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Solo on Fri May 31, 2013 5:37 pm

Yes, polish clan emblems are adapted from runes and previous pagan traditions, which is not very surprising anyway (think of the pommeranian bull head and griffins, the rurikid runes or the lithuanian stylized columns). You can see the same kind of phenomenon further east in Russia with the recurring bows or in Scandinavia with the Valraven, and other oddities. So it's more of a common cultural phenomenon that's spread other a large area, and it's really not specific to orthodox or polish emblems.

The reason the rune-like emblems are common in some western russian lands too is mostly due to the extension of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and the overall tardiness of heraldry there (as always it's easier to replace something when there's no firmly established customs). I've included some of the less distinctive ones with crescent/stars designs and a few less obviously russian constructions that wouldn't stand out too much. I've cut the image but the template is only two third done or so in reality so there's still some work to fill it completely if you have suggestions that fit the idea of all around orthodox specificities (and not too akward or post medieval).

Either way it's gonna have to be focused on one or the other, and I think the most primitive form of greek/balkan/armenian/bulgarian heraldry will adapt better everywhere because it's far less specific in its construction to begin with.

The goal is to add a little bit more authenticity, there's nothing very complex that can be done unless we control cultures or titles at the same time (although I haven't tried to specify a culture since the update but I'm 99.9999% it still won't work). Polish heraldry is a very good example that would really deserve its own template if we could.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:18 pm

By the way, Solo. The House of Villena that holds the Marquisate of Villena has a confusing name.

It was usually referred to as the House of Don Juan Manuel, or the House of Manuel. Their descendants usually bore the patronymic "Manuel". The Infant Manuel of Castile should not, of course, be considered part of this dynasty, he's only the father of its founder, Don Juan Manuel.

There's another House of Villena, that which comes from James II of Aragon, that intermarried with the House of Manuel and became Marquis of Villena because of marriage.

Its last male descendant was Henry of Villena, aka Henry the Magician, Henry the Astrologist or Henry the Nigromancer (Necromancer?).
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Solo on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:19 pm

I see your point, Manuel is indeed part of the Villena dynasty in the history files. I will change him back to Castille-Ivrea and grant the dynasty their winged dextrochere emblem in the process (now that I've drawn it).
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:49 pm

Dextrochere, is that its name? I always wondered how was it called.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Solo on Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:26 pm

Yes, or destrochere in old french and english. The right side of the shield is called "dextre" so the opposite is a senestrochere (from "senestre", left), but that's really utterly rare.

Many things in heraldry have a very ancient or purely symbolic/allusive form in the text. The head of a boar is "une hure". The head of bull, facing you is a "rencontre" (a wild encounter it means). The deer horns are called a "massacre" because you gutted and butchered the beast you represent on the shield. The eagle is always feminine, "une aigle".

There are many more of those and knowing them is a bit mandatory for academic work so you can detect any form of canting or allusive meaning in the emblem you're studying.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:48 pm

Hey Solo, I've been to Mallorca these days and I've found at least one carving (modern) of our niot-so-famous Aragon-Montpellier coat of arms. In the carving it was used to represent the Lordship of Montpellier in the ensemble of the Kingdom of Mallorques, but we know that's not the case. It seems it wasn't used by James II or Sanxo the Peaceful (both of them used mainly or, three pals gules), but probably by James III. James IV, I've been told, was the one that adopted the azure/purple bend on the four pals, but it doesn't seem right, since he was probably the proudest of all the kings of Mallorca and the most aggressively anti-Aragon. He would seek to use their ancestor's symbols if possible, he wouldn't make another one up, even less using the Aragon pals with no other brisure than the bend. The three pals, by then, had already become a power symbol for Mallorca, but Peter the Cerimonious made sure it wasn't used again. As far as I know, it only pops up again with the Trastámara bastards in Naples, Ferrante and his progeny, and that's 150 years later or so.

Also, the Seager's Roll is older than than the mid-XIVth Century, when James IV was supposed to adopt the CoA with the bend.

Anyway, heraldic cavilations after vacations.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:53 am

Dear Solo,
that is truly excellent work on those Byz and pagan coats of arms, well done!

I am not sure how well you are informed about the bohemian ones, given your excellent work so far I suppose you are, but will post some unique charges typical for bohemian nobility if you don't mind.

One, I believe fairly unique, is "ostrev, ostrve", present in many coats of arms, representing log with sticks cut off.

Mostly to dynasties originated from the Ronovec family, like below, z Lipé:


Another unique is that of dynasty and subdynasties of Benešovic, curved arrow.


Typical for Vchynský (later Chynský and in the end Kinský) family were silver wolf teeth


Z Pernštejna had a head of the european bison.


Other includes very common heraldic rose, occasional lions, rakes, fleur de lis and other usual symbols.
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Re: Dynasties, heraldry and emblematics

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