New Borders

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New Borders

Post by Grallonsphere on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:10 pm

I've playing around with the 'de jure' borders to make them more ... organic - and in my mind more rational.  The second objective was to make them fit the imperial borders of Rome.  Pity you can reform the old Empire only if you're orthodox.  The HRE is still a 'de jure' empire for now.  When Idib is finished updating the mod we can discuss further.  But for now these are suggestions.

EDIT: bahh I can't upload images or insert previews.  So you'll have to download them from media fire.

'de jure' empires

'de jure' kingdoms

Byzantine duchies

Spanish duchies

French duchies

British duchies

German duchies

Italian duchies

Eastern European duchies

Polish duchies

Persian and Arabic duchies

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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:38 pm

That is awesome Grallon, thanks for keeping us updated! Smile

Though I gotta admit, I always cringe when I see de-jure Bavarian Znojmo or the Ruthenia-Rus kingdoms, makes me even more appreciate and look forward the new map based on César's stellar work! I hope this work of yours won't go to waste by this  though.

My if bit pedantic but for gameplay imo important statement, that there should be just 1 de-jure empire (Byz), perhaps Persia could be somewhat agreeable upon too, I don't know, while the rest would be purely titular. It makes me wonder if these huge portions of lands of de-jure Byz wouldn't easify the reconquest too much for AI. One last act of nitpicking, Slavonia in Hungary?

I hope the above points will be taken as constructive criticism and not as sign of me not liking your hard work.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Grallonsphere on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:43 pm

For having speed played (read giving my character loads of cash) several games I can say it's definitely easier for a human player with Byzantium - especially when it comes to conquering Christian territories - however the AI doesn't take the opportunities we take.  And yes Slavonia should be in Croatia than you for noticing it - it will be corrected.

I'm holding off before removing the science fiction empires until the new map is completed - if it ever is... our cartographer (Evendir) seem to have vanished - or is playing EUIV Laughing


Last edited by Grallonsphere on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New Borders

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:06 pm

Kingdom of Asturias? Shouldn't it be León?

Also, the duchy layout will depend eventually on whether we want duchies to "force" the AI to try to go for the historical late game map (like having Armagnac or Foix stretching into their XIVth Century shapes) or for titular titles to solve this, and having a more real "de jure" map.

The second would be ideal, but my experience is that the first one is the one that prevents nonsense and make the game look better, at least for us history nazis.

Although with the 9th Century mess in the mod... Razz
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Re: New Borders

Post by Grallonsphere on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:47 pm

These modifications were based on the vanilla setup since I don't have the updated map or the TPTT cultures to work with.

From what I saw in the vanilla landed titles - Leon appears to be event driven (see below):

# Needs to be up here for the k_asturias allow trigger
k_leon = {
color={ 233 158 51 }
color2={ 255 255 255 }

dignity = 1 # One more county than de jure

capital = 190 # Leon

culture = castillan

# Creation/usurpation trigger
allow = {
religion_group = christian
FROM = {
any_previous_holder = {
always = yes
}
}
}

catholic = 250 # Crusade target weight
muslim = 25 # Crusade target weight
}
-----

As for trying "to go for the historical late game map" I don't think that's a good idea - the whole purpose of the game is to rewrite history so we shouldn't 'straight-jacket' it by predefining the ultimate outcome.

Hence my idea of 'organic borders' - where geographical landmarks such as rivers or mountain ranges serve as natural borders. Observe the map of Spain I linked above - I destroyed the Duchy of Seville and grafted it to Cordoba since, in my mind, it makes sense a ruler would try to expand his domains in order to encompass the whole Guadalquivir river basin.

Of course the new map being much more detailed this could be refined even further.

If there were a 'de jure' drift mechanic for duchies things would be simpler. You would create titular titles and they would drift according to the playthrough.

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Re: New Borders

Post by Herr Doctor on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:56 pm

Personally I do not like ahistorical de jure empires. I think this is a very bad idea really.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:46 pm

Grallonsphere wrote:These modifications were based on the vanilla setup since I don't have the updated map or the TPTT cultures to work with.

From what I saw in the vanilla landed titles - Leon appears to be event driven (see below):

# Needs to be up here for the k_asturias allow trigger
k_leon = {
color={ 233 158 51 }
color2={ 255 255 255 }

dignity = 1 # One more county than de jure

capital = 190 # Leon

culture = castillan

# Creation/usurpation trigger
allow = {
religion_group = christian
FROM = {
any_previous_holder = {
always = yes
}
}
}

catholic = 250 # Crusade target weight
muslim = 25 # Crusade target weight
}
-----

As for trying "to go for the historical late game map" I don't think that's a good idea - the whole purpose of the game is to rewrite history so we shouldn't 'straight-jacket' it by predefining the ultimate outcome.  

Hence my idea of 'organic borders' - where geographical landmarks such as rivers or mountain ranges serve as natural borders.  Observe the map of Spain I linked above - I destroyed the Duchy of Seville and grafted it to Cordoba since, in my mind, it makes sense a ruler would try to expand his domains in order to encompass the whole Guadalquivir river basin.

Of course the new map being much more detailed this could be refined even further.

If there were a 'de jure' drift mechanic for duchies things would be simpler.  You would create titular titles and they would drift according to the playthrough.
I'm not satisfied with the "organic" layout, because geography isn't everything. I'd agree if the game could make up for some of its mechanics and AI screwing with reasonable or plausible events and giving birth to silly situations like a French-controlled Andalusia or, moreso even, a king of France in 1066 that is all-powerful and controls all of Southern France. But the game has its limitations, and in order to make it run in a plausible manner, I think a mix between the organic and the deterministic layouts is the right way to go, but....

...But I'm not entirely satisfied with the deterministic layout either, so I think I'll step aside this discussion and let you people decide what's better. I mean, if after some testing, the organic layout doesn't prove to generate nonsense all the time, then I guess we have a winner.

By the way, give Tarragona back to Barcelona. If you don't, you're crippling the natural line of expansion of the Counts of Barcelona down to Valencia. Also, the "natural frontier" would be in the Ebro river, south of Tarragona, not in the Llobregat, which by 1066 had been long surpassed.

And there's no reason not to give Alicante to Valencia instead of Murcia. True that the southern half of Alicante was always more Murcian in relations, but the province is whole, and Denia was always closer to Valencia than to Murcia, even when the House of Manuel were effective overlords of all of Mucia and Alicante.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:38 am

I honestly am more for determinism, but my main personal idea is:

Especially in the early startdate, de-jure borders somewhat remind of the Roman empire to be set up. There would be strict creation rules though. Basileus could never create the titular Serbia, and a Slav would never create the de-jure Illyria. Instead, Croats will get titular Croatia, which will slowly drift Illyria and southern Pannonia into Croatia. All should be navigated by story telling events, which would guide the AI to do somewhat historical-like approach, while player could ignore them. Same with Gallia and others.

The only de-jure empire should be Byz, which would be  somewhat similiar to native de-jure map, but it shouldn't include Georgia nor Croatia. Sorry Gralon, but I think your de-jure map would simplify it for player too much.

As of renovatio imperii, once the HRE is defeated (more to read in the Byz thread), it will lose any de-jure land if it had any already, and the classical Roman borders will be restored.

The rest would be titular empires, requiring lot of piety, gold (1000 perhaps) and prestige and sometimes certain lands
-HRE
-Francia - HRE not existing, then creatable
-Rus - Constantinople is fallen
-Bulgaria- having the same area as in 867 start
-Serbia
-maybe even Great Moravian empire-holding lower Pannonia, Meissen, Silesia, Galich. Ironically, the ruler would probably still be named kniaz (=prince of principality)
-High kingdom of Britain
-Persia

Thoughts?

I also think it highly depends on how the new map looks.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:04 am

Radetzky wrote:I honestly am more for determinism, but my main personal idea is:

Especially in the early startdate, de-jure borders somewhat remind of the Roman empire to be set up. There would be strict creation rules though. Basileus could never create the titular Serbia, and a Slav would never create the de-jure Illyria. Instead, Croats will get titular Croatia, which will slowly drift Illyria and southern Pannonia into Croatia. All should be navigated by story telling events, which would guide the AI to do somewhat historical-like approach, while player could ignore them. Same with Gallia and others.

The only de-jure empire should be Byz, which would be  somewhat similiar to native de-jure map, but it shouldn't include Georgia nor Croatia. Sorry Gralon, but I think your de-jure map would simplify it for player too much.

As of renovatio imperii, once the HRE is defeated (more to read in the Byz thread), it will lose any de-jure land if it had any already, and the classical Roman borders will be restored.
I agree with you. However personally I would leave HRE as second de jure empire (but without Northern Italy and Kingdom of Burgundy naturally). It would represent "desirable" medieval formula portraying the hierarchical system of imagined Christendom: one empire (i.e. "Roman") and two emperors. During the era of Charlemagne the ruler of the Franks after the imperial coronation in Rome addressed the Byzantine emperor as "brother" and the Byzantine ruler allowed his envoys to address Charles as "basileus". It was even further suggested to unify the both empires under the authority of two emperors as it was back in Roman time. Something for the reading:
http://books.google.by/books?id=9lHeh36S8ooC&pg=PT827&dq=relations+with+the+east+802-813&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=E6otUrulHsfb4QTMqoGQDw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Radetzky wrote:The rest would be titular empires, requiring lot of piety, gold (1000 perhaps) and prestige and sometimes certain lands
-HRE
-Francia - HRE not existing, then creatable
-Rus - Constantinople is fallen
-Bulgaria- having the same area as in 867 start
-Serbia
-maybe even Great Moravian empire-holding lower Pannonia, Meissen, Silesia, Galich. Ironically, the ruler would probably still be named kniaz (=prince of principality)
-High kingdom of Britain
-Persia
You can also add Hispania to this list quite legitimately as the various Iberian kings historically tried to claim imperial sovereignty of their power during the 11th-12th centuries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperator_totius_Hispaniae
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:31 pm

About HRE:
How about compromise solution? In 867 start there would be no de-jure HRE, while 1066-1453 yes.

The main source for the removal of early HRE is that Karling player can go either for Francia or HRE. The creation of both should have the criterium that the second must not exist.

The restoration of empire event which folowing the war for supremacy with HRE would, if won by Byzantines, at once remove all HRE core.

_______
Adding Hispania is fine by me too Smile

I've also forgot Ottoman empire, which would be titular empire-level sultanate I suppose.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:25 pm

[quote="Herr Doctor"]
Radetzky wrote:
Radetzky wrote:The rest would be titular empires, requiring lot of piety, gold (1000 perhaps) and prestige and sometimes certain lands
-HRE
-Francia - HRE not existing, then creatable
-Rus - Constantinople is fallen
-Bulgaria- having the same area as in 867 start
-Serbia
-maybe even Great Moravian empire-holding lower Pannonia, Meissen, Silesia, Galich. Ironically, the ruler would probably still be named kniaz (=prince of principality)
-High kingdom of Britain
-Persia
You can also add Hispania to this list quite legitimately as the various Iberian kings historically tried to claim imperial sovereignty of their power during the 11th-12th centuries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperator_totius_Hispaniae
I'd change Hispania into "All of Spain" or "all the Spains". It may look weird in the map, but the title would rock on a character's name: Empire of All the Spains, and Emperor of All the Spains. It's also more accurate. Emperor of Hispania sounds like it's Viriatus or Pompey crowning themselves in the Early Empire. Emperor of Spain could also do the trick. But no "King of Spain", this title it way too XVIth Century.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:24 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:I'd change Hispania into "All of Spain" or "all the Spains". It may look weird in the map, but the title would rock on a character's name: Empire of All the Spains, and Emperor of All the Spains. It's also more accurate. Emperor of Hispania sounds like it's Viriatus or Pompey crowning themselves in the Early Empire. Emperor of Spain could also do the trick. But no "King of Spain", this title it way too XVIth Century.
Yep, "of all Spains" sounds good. I believe something like this (only under king's title) was used even during early modern era (16th-19th centuries), i.e. "Hispaniarum Rex", "rey de las Españas".
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Re: New Borders

Post by Grallonsphere on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:42 pm

How about this then - a compromise - on the one hand the 'de jure' borders of Charlemagne's empire - on the other the 'de jure' borders of Justinian's empire.  Add to this the usual traditional borders of the Parthian/Persian empire.  Everything else would be added - or removed - through drifting.

'de jure' empires - 2

And here are the new 'de jure' borders for kingdoms:

'de jure' kingdoms - 2

Notice how I gave the Duchy of Valencia to Andalusia - made the kingdom of Georgia independent - and split the Kingdom of Nubia between Nubia proper and Abyssinia - Nubia belonging to the Byzantine empire.  I am unsure if Croatia should belong to the HRE or the ERE - some maps give it it to either.

EDIT: you will also note how I reduced the Kingdom of Aragon by giving Catalyud to Castille and the duchy of Valencia to Andalusia.

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Re: New Borders

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:56 am

Grallonsphere wrote:How about this then - a compromise - on the one hand the 'de jure' borders of Charlemagne's empire - on the other the 'de jure' borders of Justinian's empire.  Add to this the usual traditional borders of the Parthian/Persian empire.  Everything else would be added - or removed - through drifting.

'de jure' empires - 2

And here are the new 'de jure' borders for kingdoms:

'de jure' kingdoms - 2

Notice how I gave the Duchy of Valencia to Andalusia - made the kingdom of Georgia independent - and split the Kingdom of Nubia between Nubia proper and Abyssinia - Nubia belonging to the Byzantine empire.  I am unsure if Croatia should belong to the HRE or the ERE - some maps give it it to either.

EDIT: you will also note how I reduced the Kingdom of Aragon by giving Catalyud to Castille and the duchy of Valencia to Andalusia.
I would rather merge Rus/Ruthenia and France/Aquitaine de jure kingdoms (the last could be titular as was mentioned in the other thread) as they look a bit anachronistic. The rest looks fine for the 9th century's start; but the traditional one in 1066 would need fixing (if this is possible).
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:35 pm

I will, and hopefully won't be damned for it, express my opinion in hopefully not enraging way.

de-jure HRE of size like that is a recipe to something noone really wants. Big. Grey. Blob. Overly stable, too. It is a design that won't stand.

I will once again mention my proposal from yesterday:
In 867 start there would be no de-jure HRE, while 1066-1453 yes. The main source for the removal of early HRE is that Karling player can go either for Francia or HRE. The creation of both should have the criterium that the second must not exist.
The 1066 de-jure HRE is to be similiar to vanilla one, not to blob.
Justinian style Byzantine de-jure borders are too big too imo, the restoration of Rome should be chalenging even (!) for player. Like this it is just waiting for Abbasid succesion crysis and then steamrolling everyone, muslim or else. I for one think de-jure Byz borders shouldn't include even Croatia (WRE), Georgia or Armenia.

And as last, thanks for pointing it out Herr Doctor, the stupid native game design of Rus-Ruthenia, which then form Russia. Those three are one and same thing!
Even considering all the stuff the bastards from SWMH have done, and that their map is truly just "somewhat more historical", their de-jure system of grand principalities in Rus' is probably the best way to go.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:44 pm

Radetzky wrote:And as last, thanks for pointing it out Herr Doctor, the stupid native game design of Rus-Ruthenia, which then form Russia. Those three are one and same thing!
Even considering all the stuff the bastards from SWMH have done, and that their map is truly just "somewhat more historical", their de-jure system of grand principalities in Rus' is probably the best way to go.
I have to agree. Only imperial title for Rus is too unrealistically easily creatable in SWMH.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:00 pm

I agree. The main creation criterium should be that Constantinople is not in Christian hands. Then Moscow (or any other player's capital) can become "Third Rome".
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Re: New Borders

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Giving Calatayud to Castile will only make Castile take it most of the times. In reality, Castille did take all the lands conquered by Alfonso the Battler in Zaragoza, Cuenca, Molina and Calatayud, but it was split afterwards in a treaty, which the game is unable to represent.

So I propose to have the Aragon-Castille borders like in the Treaty of Cazorla. The way they were. Neither Calatayud to Castille nor Molina and Cuenca to Aragon.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Grallonsphere on Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:13 pm

I hope you all realize this isn't in any way 'official'? The new integrated map doesn't exist yet and I couldn't code it myself even if my life depended on it. I have no idea how to move the borders or what syntax to use to simulate the various conditions you suggested. Before 1.11 and the ToG expansion Solo and I had cleaned the SWHM titles files we used in version 1.902 - splitting them by function - indexing them all. I'm not even using that since I got no indication from Idib he'll be re-using that or what Evender said he would make.

That is the problem with modding Paradox games - they themselves constantly recycle stuff - with hardly any guidelines for us. I mean how many localization files are there since launch 2 years ago? There is vestigial stuff in those files that are no longer used yet they clutter everywhere. The vanilla buildings are scattered throughout several CSVs. The whole thing is sloppy. And every time there's a major update we have to go through everything all over again. It's a full time job. No wonder people get burned out.

Ok /end rant

So to answer your comments - I'm merely moving things around in the vanilla files and bouncing ideas off you out here.

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Re: New Borders

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:31 pm

Grallonsphere wrote:I hope you all realize this isn't in any way 'official'?  The new integrated map doesn't exist yet and I couldn't code it myself even if my life depended on it.  I have no idea how to move the borders or what syntax to use to simulate the various conditions you suggested.  Before 1.11 and the ToG expansion Solo and I had cleaned the SWHM titles files we used in version 1.902 - splitting them by function - indexing them all.  I'm not even using that since I got no indication from Idib he'll be re-using that or what Evender said he would make.  

That is the problem with modding Paradox games - they themselves constantly recycle stuff - with hardly any guidelines for us.  I mean how many localization files are there since launch 2 years ago?  There is vestigial stuff in those files that are no longer used yet they clutter everywhere.  The vanilla buildings are scattered throughout several CSVs.  The whole thing is sloppy.  And every time there's a major update we have to go through everything all over again.  It's a full time job.  No wonder people get burned out.

Ok /end rant

So to answer your comments - I'm merely moving things around in the vanilla files and bouncing ideas off you out here.  
I know, I know. I'm merely suggesting what I think plays best on the long run. I know this is all mere discussion.
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:36 pm

Yes Grallon, please don't take it as anything else than constructive criticism!

You see, there are two sides of one coin. At one side, except for few historians of 11th century, who ever admires Mathilde di Canossa big... tracts of lands? And at the second, people will get really butthurt even at some detail the people of the era hardly thought of and are in popular knowledge totaly forgotten.

I think, the message to devs is clear. This mod is our last hope for immersive mod, closest possible to historical accuracy. All the others have failed. Therefore we try to address as many issues at once, which may look seemingly aggresive, while it is anything but that. After all, what would we have, weren't it for you, devs? Nothing!
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Re: New Borders

Post by Radetzky on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:39 pm

Here is my vision of early startdate de-jure kingdom situation:

Dalmatia and Pannonia will get drifted into Croatia and Hungary.

If GM loses Nitra to Magyars, it desolves.

None of these should be part of any de-jure empire.

Based of course on vanilla map.
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Re: New Borders

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