Muslim states

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Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 am


As the reasons are urgent and the Byzantine topic was not the right to discuss my proposals, I opened this topic. In the first post here I would like to propose subject of decadence change, in next posts slavery, harems, succession laws, etc.

Decadence

‘Tis by far one of the most discussed topics of CK2 lately. The way it is represented right now is impossible to handle for both AI and player. Massive scale purges did not happen really as they are portrayed, not to mention it is heavily immersion breaking.  In the end, is not this almost a definition of decadence, murdering kinsmen to ensure succession?
Not to mention it obviously doesn’t work against what it is aimed at: Muslim blobs. If decadence revolt happens, it just resets the state with 0% perfect new dynasty ruler.

After deep thought and studying different proposals I formed several principles:
-Decadence should NOT be based on dynasty. You have no control of what are doing your distant relatives somewhere else, yet they influence your very state!
In this spirit I was thinking how this could be solved, if by state, title decadence or else, and found, in my eyes only plausible solution. Every noble will have his own decadence meter akin to piety/prestige.
-The free imprisonment and execution of relatives should be eliminated as soon as possible. This could only apply to dynasty members with high personal decadence.
-How the decadence should be increasing and decreasing:
Firstly, by traits. But not only yours, but also of your close relatives (those with red drop). That way, even if your character has godly traits, he might get some smaller increase of decadence from relatives here and there. Ideal would be that most realms would be somewhere around 25-50%, achieving 0% should be possible, but hard, and well 100%, that’s for when totally incompetent people get on throne.

I copied some proposals from paradox forums:
Imprisoning and executing family members carries a massive decadence penalty.
Failed assassinations for family members carry big decadence penalties.
Thus, decadence will happen, it is inevitable. However, you can keep it low by enacting decisions that cost you money, piety or prestige. Or temporarily set down your stats.

Decisions could be:
-Sponsor Sufi School
-Commission Ancestral Tomb
-Preach
-Pilgrimage to local holy site
-Consult Mufti/Dai (Sunni/Shia)
Often, there will be events that will be like: minus decadence at cost of relation cost (enacting new laws), choice of decadence or big minus in prestige/piety, etc.
Few of my own proposals:
-every gift to someone in your realm increases decadence, since it’s basically a bribe.
-incurring tyranny, revoking vassal titles without reason etc. will as well.
-if you are decadence-less vassal of very decadent ruler, your decadence will increase a little now and then and vice versa.

Decadence fails to splinter realms; it's just a temporary nuisance to certain dynasties. When high decadence was achieved, depending on the factions, ether coup for less decadent dynasty member, usurpation of power by warlord (Mamelukes).
How to achieve the breakdown of empires during decadence revolt? If the crown authority is autonomous vassals or low, the highest title is destroyed and the lords gain independence. Other solution would be that every vassal would gain independence but the title would be kept, but the former vassals should be reluctant to join their former liege. If medium or higher, all vassals who strive for independence are granted it and those who are not de-jure become independent too.

Thoughts? Opinions?
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Naoki on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:26 am

Very nice ideas, but how realistic is it to implement them? It sounds to me that most things will encounter the "hard-coded" barrier.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:33 am

Well CK+ changed it heavily as far as I know, not writing that from personal experience though. So the hardcodding barrier I hope won't prevent at least partial changes. Considering the magic devs of this mod have done, I think it should be at least somewhat doable, since muslims are as of now almost unplayable.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:07 pm

its the first time I see events.txts in ck ii,(take it lightly)
Code:
trigger = {
              top_liege = {
                 is_close_relative = ROOT
                 religion_group = muslim
                    }
                      }
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:23 pm

Thanks for the initiative Iago! I think Naoki's main concern was the "personal decadence" bit.

I playtested a quick round with muslims after a while today, which just cemented my opinion. The ruthless slaughter! In end the decadence just goes off in geometrical row, not to mention AI can't manage it.

To simplify the bit about free imprisoning of decadent relatives, perhaps two new traits could be applied. Decadent (which would decrease every trait but intrigue) and virtuous/moral, which would do other way around.
____________
Anyway, next thing on my list was slavery.

Back in the days something completely common and something not to be frowned upon in pagan and islamic countries. While of course I don't propose making tons of physical slaves (except perhaps changing the eunuch gift event, into beautiful slave girl, able male thrall/kholop/Saqaliba etc.), it would be a good way to get rid of prisoners, those who run into debt, etc.

There would be few slave centres, where would be in the town special building "slave market", which would give extra tax. The mayor would have the slaves imprisoned in his court. Muslims and pagans would have possibility to sell their prisoners in slavery for 10-20 money, or keep them as slaves in their court (same way as concubines). The dynasty members might want to buy the enslaved back.

Slaves would have trait akin to the peasant leader trait, deteoriating their diplomacy completely. Landed characters captured in war could have the option to buy themselves out from their captor, or face slavery, which would mean losing titles and being out of succesion.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:55 pm

Code:
trigger = {
              top_liege = {
                 is_close_relative = ROOT
                 religion_group = muslim
                 only_playable = yes

                    }}
Sorry i will try to explain it:
with this trigger if it works as i think,you can fire an event increasing decadence of the family if a close relative of the Top liegue(the upper liege, and only if he is the player) meets some condition(i didnt post any but one example trait=drunkard).

I think the idea can works as personal decadence but only for the player


**don´t know if is_close_relative = ROOT works if not maybe one workaround with the family relations from the mod can run


Last edited by iago6666 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:30 pm

Thanks for the explanation, that's a great start Iago!

Might not it be possible to make a copy of piety/prestige and "mount" the percentual decadence on it?


One good thing is that actually many of the trait-related decadence events are already present (like "carrot, not the stick"), so we don't have to work from scratch, unlike the Hybris proposal of César (which should be easier to research though, unless some orientalist is present here).

While I have even already seen people suggest decadence for everyone, I think it is only accurate for muslims and if portrayed correctly, Byzantines, since the sort of decadence of catholic clergy (Luther) is portrayed by religious authority, and for the rest piety and prestige system is enough, since they lack the boni of the first two groups.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:54 pm

the percentual  i doubt it,but a substraction system(for nº piety decrease nº/100 decadence points)or a
probabilistic system(for nº piety chance of decrease decadence points) i think it´s doable
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:31 am

Right, sounds cool Iago, I admire you helping with my proposals Smile, because I don't know what's the status and opinion of the mod officials.

Seeing my brother go adventurer style ingame, the trigger of close family should probably include the formula, that the close relatives must be in the realm.

One more of decadence events adaptations could be:
The old relative demands land to govern event can be made so that when refused, decadence goes up a little bit.
Maybe (and now not only speaking of muslims), some more importance can be given to this unused, pilgrim trait?

_______________________
The next on my list was harem I believe.

This is closely related to how well are implementable the Byzantine court politics. Ideally, every king and emperor-level ruler (perhaps rich independent duke could establish too?) would have about 5-10 extra women in court, marked as concubines, plus a eunuch(s) as servant. That would be a hotbed for intrigue to kill each  other, the wives, to become wife, to kill some servant, children, etc.. If children are born to concubine, it will have the concubine child trait from native.The harem system would go nicely with slavery, as many concubines would be of that source.
_____________
I was also thinking, regarding religion, wouldn't it be more accurate to split Ibadi in sepparate Islam group? As heresy they have no chance of survival. Alas, my knowledge on this matter is very limited, so while gameplay-wise I wish there was at least some differentiation in Shia-Sunni events, I have no clue how accurate they would be. Which reminds me that I once managed to become Hashimid double-caliph, but not a single thing happened.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:38 am

Cool i know is usseless,i redone it,is only to say you if i can found some workaround in pseudocode without expertise,Idlib,Solo or Grallon,can do wonders much more efficients
Code:

only_playable=yes
ia = no
religion_group = muslim

trigger = {
              any_realm_character = {
                
                 OR = {
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_father }
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_grandfather }
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_grandmother}
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier =opinion_grandchild  }
                  has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_uncle  }
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_aunt }
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_nephew}
                   has_opinion_modifier = { who = ROOT modifier = opinion_niece  }
              
                   ....   
            
}
}

                    }
That icon reminds me the Way of Saint James
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:07 pm


-Crusader Kings II Patch 1.11 - Changelog
Added so bastard dynasties are generated when the first bastard is born.


*maybe if it can be generated a bastard dynastie for not close relatives,then maybe there is a better solution for personal decadence
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:05 pm

Regarding the first post, thank you, you see, with my modding knowledge of village idiot, I was quickly confused, and I agree about the modding genii of devs! Smile

Bastard dynasties, that was a great addition by paradox. Yet I am unsure how would you want to inject it into decadence, considering even distant relatives would be of "same blood" ,especially in cases like when my little emirate was overrun by catholics and I switched to my distant relative.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:02 pm

Well, if close relatives would be a hassle, it could as well be all dynasty members within your realm. The topic is open, one thing is clear though, native decadence has to be changed.

Next on my list are succesion laws, another very dull part of playing muslim:
All turkic and later mongol rulers would have option for Kurultai, which would be basically renamed tanistry. After death of each ruler there would be an event of Kurultai happening (minus some gold, plus opinion because the new ruler was chosen). Kurultai would also be called in at matter of laws.

When succesion Kurultai would happen, all invasion wars would cease to happen.
__________

Mameluks, who would be a faction in Sultanate of Egypt, would have option to start military coup/uprising, if they succeed, Mameluk sultanate would be only agnatic elective. Mameluks themselves would be a bunch of different nations (Kypchaks, Caucasians, Turks,..), for them not to fall apart too soon there could be like +15 opinion trait "Mameluke".

For other muslims, except for agnatic open, probably agnatic primogeniture (though maybe only for Shia, perhaps just Shia caliphate?) and agnatic elective, through decisions and events , which is the closest succession law to the original muslim law of Bay'ah.

One quote I would like to share when I was looking at the discussion at paradox forums, as it gives another different sight on decadence with connection to crown laws:
mudcrabmerchant wrote:I've had an idea for an overhaul of the decadence and crown law systems to better represent non-feudal states, and I'll lay out the basics here:

Crown law defaults to high. This represents a strong, centralized, highly non-feudal state. Regional governors and subjugated rulers will, as usual, seek to reduce crown law, but as the ruler you have to be especially careful, as, unlike in a feudal realm, low crown authority spells immediate existential peril. In feudal realms, low CA represents reduced requirements from the vassals - but in a non-feudal realm, it represents vassals ignoring their ruler, and disrespecting his authority - or even his right to rule.

Decadence would represent the general respect of your dynasty and its administration, and provide a balance to ruler- and situation-based respect for authority. If his family and the administration are respected, a weak ruler might make it through his life without bringing his realm ruin. And even if his underlings do assert their independence, it'll be much easier for his successor to reassert the ruling family's authority if decadence is low. Of course, combining a weak ruler with high decadence can destroy your realm and your dynasty.

Islamic morality would still play a role in calculating decadence, but based on traits and event choices as in CK2+, and it wouldn't be as important as putting on an overall strong public image - showing your vassals that you have the power and the will to enforce the law, and deal with any threats to yourself and the realm. As far as I can tell this would mostly be dealt with via new events and decisions, though success in wars would also be a big factor.
This could in theory be applied even to non-islamic state. In native game, there is almost no reason for going to high or absolute crown authority.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:03 pm

It should be tested. If it means that giant Muslim blobs work well under a charismatic king and very badly under an average, not to say mediocre, monarch, then it's ok. If it means blobs get all the riches and troops, well...

Let's test it first.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by iago6666 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:27 am

The problem i see about decadence is that it is linked to a family(Hardcoded).

You can use the way of ck2 and only account the highers familiars ranks in their realms,
(less heavy so that ia can handle better but still other relatives in anothers realms affects it)

I don´t know if its possible to fake cadet branches via events, namely if one relative is landed in another realm then change his dinasty id(but using the same shield,name and claims)and after when a lord perishes,join the dynasties for the succesion and after rebuild them.

Other option,i thinks this is doable,is to make different rules for the player,affecting him only his close relatives in his kingdom and simulate for the ia events that trigger the effects of the decadence,according to conditions,doing it abstract but not using the decadence system.
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:54 pm

Aye, balance reasons and historical plausibility of course come first. Those are some good ideas Iago!
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Re: Muslim states

Post by Radetzky on Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:52 pm

In my latest campaign in native CK2 as Mussolini-inspired Italia (yes, Abyssinia too) I noticed something, that is not related only to muslims, but is bit of immersion breaking. Both religions and cultures seem to adapt way too quickly! After 20-30 years, half of tunis was italian catholic! Shouldn't there be some greater obstacles for conversions?
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Re: Muslim states

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