The slavic states and their state in the mod

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The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:05 am

Dear forumers,

I hope you will forgive my forwardness of creating new topic when being just a beginner here. To introduce myself, I am an utmost admirer of your mod, and have joined, so I can, if you would like to, try to correct some of the mistakes in "the east", for it is by far one of the least correct parts of native CK2, having cities founded as far as 18th century (Kherson, Rostov-na-Donu, Orenburg,..), coats of arms with people who died long after the time era (Uglich) or with cannon (Viatka).


So to start, I tried drawing the map improvements, but it ended horribly so I will rather describe the areas.

I will (with attitude of serbian nationalist Very Happy), start with my homeland, Czechia. This is to prevent making 10 threads about every slavic state.

The new start date brought me great headache mainly because the area is still covered with grea fog of unknowness.

As the map part is fairly hard, I will keep that on the end, and first dig through names and other stuff.

Czech names: Mostly fine, they could however use the diactritics. Oldřich instead of Oldrich. Would you like me to revise that?
Vít instead of Vítek and Jiří as variation of Jiřík as well would sound much better. Albert is just foreign for Albrecht.
New ones: Dětmar_Thietmar, Řehoř_Gregory, Dětleb_Dietlieb, Radim, Bušek

Moravian names: Zwentibold and Wiching are both old german names, not moravian. Jám and Ludomär I never heard of, but might be correct (ancient spelling perhaps).
There is Mojmír and Mojmir in the files.
For the new perhaps Jozef_Joseph

Dynasty names.
Opavan přemyslid should not be present, because it was just bastard dynasty of přemyslids.
von sternberg should be replaced by Šternberk.
von harrach => z Harrachu
Quite stupid mistake of mojmírovci=> Mojmírid

New dynasty names proposals:
Kamýk z Pokratic
Žižka z Trocnova
Doupovec z Doupova
Budovec z Budova
z Dražic
z Horky
z Polné
Zajíc
z Vrtby
Slavata
Vchynský
Chotek z Chotkova
z Radče
z Bezdružic
Buzic
Martinic
z Oseka
Slavníkovec

If you want I can find more. Of course this is except a few 11th-14th century nobility, as I doubt many older dynasty names are known.

Critique most welcomed, continuation coming soon.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:55 am

Welp, was writing a long article that got deleted Sad , will rather divide it in short ones now.

Regarding cultures:
-What's your opinion on spliting polish and russian cultures in the respective tribes? I know the differences would be minimal, but would make up for interesting achievments:
Poland united, spead of united polish culture starts.
Russia united by Rurik descendants, creation of Russian culture
Russia united by old slavic tribes, emerging old united "Eastern Slavic" culture, with absence of Varangian names like Rurik, Oleg, Olga, ...

-Appearance of general "Greek slavic" culture, since it is and was present but has no national identity. It could also be a result of melting pot of greek conquerors and balkan states.

-Two melting pots in the east- Lithunian conquering slav lands => Litvin
- Polish conquering Ukraine => Russyn?

It would also be lovely if there was a great number of language localisations present, for example for the "welsh reconquista" of England, or when Constanople would become Tsarigrad or Miklagarðr. I can help with this as well.

Text about the state of czech lands comes.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:22 am

The early era of Great Morava is still surrounded by myths and uncertainities.

The religion situation of early split in CK2 isn't helping it either. There should be on GM court greek scholars Konstantin and Methodius (it's 1150th anniversary of their arrival by the way!), there could perhaps be some sort of interraction with pope events about slavic liturgy.

There are also two ways how to solve de jure kingdoms:
-GM is titular (instead of stupidly being tribal), so it can slowly drift.
-GM is dynasty based title like Western and Eastern Francia.
There could be creatable empire title- Velkomoravská říše, if certain areas are held (Míšeň-Meissen, Silesia, Galich?).

Overall in the early start it should be just sparsely populated, with one or two holdings per county.

The capital of GM was Veligrad, which exact place is not exactly known, but was close to modern Velehrad.
You can run the article with translator: http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veligrad

These are the now known localities of GM, of course excludes the tributary vassals (including Bohemia)
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Velkomoravsk%C3%A9_lokality

I was long thinking about the title naming.
-Count level would be Zhupa/Župa, led by Župan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDupa
The duke level is called in different sources duke (vojvoda) or prince (kníže).
Duke Břetislav made the situation for us much messier when he created "appanage principalities" in Moravia, Olomouc, Brno and Znojmo. Those were for his sons, since there was seniority until 13th century-makes me think succesion laws should be harder to change! So I guess these three can be count-level duchies, when belonging to přemyslid dynasty members.

The Margraviate of Moravia should NOT be creatable by duke of Bohemia, only by one of the 3 appanage princes, as it was a show of power. There could e a titular duchy/principality of Opava creatable by the count, as it was created and excluded from Moravia later in middleages.

Here is a list down in the article on castle centres in Bohemia, good start for county-making
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hradsk%C3%A1_soustava

About Prague:
-Capital should be Vyšehrad, in the early start there should also be Budeč as old Přemyslids centre.

Some event ideas once Kingdom of Bohemia is created
-move to new Prague Castle in Hradčany
-if bishopric of Prague was built (in 1066 start it already should be, bishop Šebíř at that date), King may ask Pope for creation of archbishopric.

It was wrong in old Prince and thane that Olomouc was prince-bishopric. It was mainly a castle and one of the already mentioned appanage principalities. How to portrait having a castle and bishopric of Olomouc though, I don't know. Maybe bishop of "St. Wenceslaus church"? Would bend the history by a little for the 1066 start, since it was founded around 1100.

Next about Panonia, Kocel etc.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:38 am

I was searching for a good map, finally found something good:

Legend:
yellow lines: current borders
blue lines: rivers
red dots: main castles/settlements
1: from 833 to 907: Principality of Moravia
2: from 833 to 907: Principality of Nitra
3: along with 2 or along with 4
4: from 833 or from the reign of Rastislav to (?)896: Principality of Nitra
5: along with 1 or from 853/54 to (?)907: Princiaplity of Moravia
6: from 858 to (?)894: Principality of Nitra
7: along with 2 or along with 22
8: along with 6 or along with 20
9: from the reign of Rastislav (846-870) or of Svätopluk I (871-894) to 896: Principality of Nitra
10: along with 8 or along with 20
11: from 874 to (?) 907: Wislania
12: probably along with 11
13: from 880 to ?: Silesia (Silesia was not annexed according to some authors)
14: probably along with 14
15: from 890 to 897: Lusatia
16: with a high probability along with 15
17: with a high probability along with 15
18: probably along with 15-17
19: from 888/890 to 894: Bohemia
20: from 883/884 to 894: Pannonian Principality (Balaton Principality)
21: with a high probability along with 20
22: along with 20 (and 21): maybe part of the Pannonian Principality (Balaton Principality)
23: from 881/882 to 896: "Transtheissia"
24: probably along with 23
25: from the reign of Svätopluk (871-894) to (?) 896
26: from the reign of Svätopluk (871-894) to ?
27: along with 23 or along with 24
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:22 am

I have been thinking almost all night about the cultures.

I think ideal would be, but since I get no critics I don't know the community opinion, to have very different culture layout for the new start.

While the 1066 is not that much of dark ages, the 867 were much more fragmented. Even if the languages may have been closer, the cultures of certain tribes were different. The norse division in CK2 isn't working that perfect, While not in appropiate thread, I think making german culture into the many subcultures in 867 (saxon, thuringian, swabian,..) would prevent early HRE blob. Same with the already decribed eastern slavs.

I did some research about Hungary. Seems that the de jure kingdom could be divided into two before Magyars come. Pannonia- consisting from Pannonian Duchy (Kocel of either Moravian or new Slovak culture) and Slavonia I suppose. The rest would be part of "Avar kingdom", only creatable by pagan Avars. By that, if Magyars failed, it would slowly drift into GM and Bulgaria. Another new culture could be Carantanians, one of first christianised tribes.

Capital of Kocel's principality was Blatnograd, other settlements would probably keep the old latin names. One of important events could be restoration of Sirmium/Srěm archbishopric, slavic liturgy once again.

If Magyars win against Bulgarians, they gain the dejure Hungary on map, Slavonia becoming part of de jure Croatia. I however think that Magyars should lose their deathstacks, since both Kocel's principality and GM survived at least till 900, which never happens in CK2.

As of the east, I found this brilliant thread, which saves much of headache finding the tribes.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?673786-Mapping-the-Slavic-Tribes-for-quot-The-Old-Gods-quot
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:04 am

Today I aimed on Greek Crimea, area that is very lacking in native CK2 (well same can be said to Byz as whole, I hope there will be some change from the very feudal system?).

The Kherson that is in the southern tip should be renamed to Chersonesos.

More is ilustrated by maps below.

Some descriptions not present on the map: " port city of Melita (from Greek Μέλι (meli) - "honey") which had been situated on the mouth of the Molochna River. "
Tsukhumi- town in that county should be renamed to Dioscurias if captured by greeks, fortress to Sebastopolis.
Pitsunda=> Pityus when greek.
Quite important ancient and early medieval city of Phasis near Poti was a seat of Diocese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasis_%28town%29
Apsaros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonio
Batomi (correct Georgian for the era)=> Bathys when greek, plus nearby fortress of Petra.


And one bit older map of both regions (Ancient era though).


The Bulgarian vs. Byzantine names also demand atention, as for example Constantia should still be named Tomis in early start, with possible event to name it after the sister of Constantine the great triggering during 10th century.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:24 am

One fairly unknown and in CK2 totally omited state of Balkans in the early start date were serbian Dalmatian pirates Narentines, also known as Pagania, since they rejected christianity all the way till 870s, at least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines



In my honest opinion it would be quite a nice addition for players who would want challenge. Smile

After my chat with César, I would, if you allow me, post my statement about exonymes of counties and settlement. While of course it's not ideal that it is based on top liege, it represents being under foreign "yoke". Therefore I think there should be as many exonymes as possible for the immersion reason, after all this is TPaTT! And of course, with this, as totally uneducated person in modding, I can help.


Last edited by Radetzky on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:40 pm

Radetzky what is your opinion of the croatian´s maps I put into the italian thread.

best i put them into this thread,I think this its a better place


Croatia between 845-864:




bisophrics between 8 -11 centuries:




*** open the images in a new window to see the full maps
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:02 pm

The pagan pirates of Serbia, that's a neat concept. I din't know about them.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:23 pm

Thank you for input Iago, I apprecite it greatly. Smile

Yes I think this layout is looking good. However there seem to be some questionable terms on the first map? Namely Bijela Hrvatska (White Croatia), only white Crotia I know is nowhere near Balkans. And then Red Croatia, which is more of term belonging to 19th century and the idea of "Greater Croatia", isn't that right?

The bishopric layout will definitely be usefull. I would like to remind significance to (arch)bishopric of Pannonia, defunct in the early startdate, with the site in Sirmium/Srěm. Could that be something that would spice the playthrough as Kocel as sort of event chain to restore it in the name of Andronicus of Pannonia, interanting with st. Cyril and Methodius, establishing respect to slavic liturgy?

The de-jure situation is rather difficult too. Should the "duchy of Croatia" as it is in CK2 be part of Pannonia? That would probably desolve of Magyars succede with their conquest.

I will further fuel my agenda for tribal cultures in early start, how should the cultural layout look like?
In the north, Carantanians (modern Slovenes)
In modern Croatia, (Pannonian) Croatians and Dalmatians, since the assimilisation of Dalmatians only started in 15th century.
Then Bosnians and Serbs.

All those small principalities in lower Dalmatia should be of course Dalmatian culture, unless you want to go wild with new cultures for insignificant tribes, like you can see below.


One rather important note I already mentioned earlier:
Contrary to Paradox devs, there were big numbes of Slavs over the Byzantine empire. Especially around Epiros and Thesallonika, but also Anatolia, where they were resettled in 6th century from Balkans.

Since my study of this topic earlier in this thread, I came to suitable name, Sclaveni/Sklavenoi, because it was a mozaic of indistinguishable tribes. People ingame of this culture (just courtiers or bishops/mayors anyway) should be probably based on Balkan names of Serbs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

EDIT: Thanks for the comment César and yes indeed! To correct myself and prevent Croat-Serb nationalism war Very Happy , I will state the pirates as of dalmatian culure.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:02 pm

lavender in Hvar is one of the best reasons I know to be nationalistic Cool 

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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:42 pm

Haha I can understand that. As it also involves you as a Croatian, what's your opinion on slavic liturgy ingame? Back before the great schism it was quite a big thing with Popes getting involved, etc.

Even if I covered Crimea in earlier post, I totally missed Crimean Goths. The possibilities with last remnants of the (in)famous Goths! But since this is almost pure Slav thread, I wonder, would it be okay to start another, probably universal Byzantine thread? I already feel as if I invaded the forums..
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:38 pm

Haha i´m spaniard,from Galicia,but I would not mind to live in krk or hvar.i´m only a croatian in spirit.

Not that I'm complaining,the only one more beautiful island than these two in europe,in my opinion, is near of my hometown,the Cíes Islands(I think i´m a nationalist in my own way).

Now that you know that my view about the slavic liturgy is irrelevant,i will try to explain it.

More church drama is what the game needs.
Create an alphabet(the first Slavic and the first literacy)in order to memorize the Mass in another language not allowed is a touch of genius,it influenced the cultural development of all Slavs and encouraged the awareness of being Slavic.and also was important for the conversion of the Slavs.

For some reason Saints Cyril and Methodius
were declared co-patrons saints of Europe.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:19 am

Haha, now that was bit of faux pas, sorry. Yes I also have some of my "second homes", including the childhood memories on holidays in S'Agaró.

Oh I wouldn't even think your view is irrelevant now, actually you might have better overview of things like this without being tainted by bias or propaganda. I think if the Slavic liturgy was taken in sort of style how is Libertas ecclesiae in the mod, it would be good. It would increase relation of Slavic catholic clergy of Pope and decrease that of non-slavic (for example archbishop of Salzburg was quite pissed). And if Pope forbades it, it would change the relations respectively, during the life time of the Pope (in history it was Stephen V.). Perhaps succeding in the quest for reestablishment of already thousand-times mentioned archbishopric of Pannonia could prevent Pope from doing so. For Slavic folks of the Byzantine rite it would probably increase somewhat relation bishop-ruler or so, because ecumenical patriarch had little to do with it.

Yes, Cyrillo-Methodean tradition is still strong here, as was proved this year during the 1150th anniversary.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:38 am

Radetzky wrote:Haha, now that was bit of faux pas, sorry. Yes I also have some of my "second homes", including the childhood memories on holidays in S'Agaró.
Holidays at S'Agaró, not bad. Platja d'Aro is not the most beautiful village, but the area can be breathtaking and peaceful if you go to the right places.

Radetzky wrote:Oh I wouldn't even think your view is irrelevant now, actually you might have better overview of things like this without being tainted by bias or propaganda. I think if the Slavic liturgy was taken in sort of style how is Libertas ecclesiae in the mod, it would be good. It would increase relation of Slavic catholic clergy of Pope and decrease that of non-slavic (for example archbishop of Salzburg was quite pissed). And if Pope forbades it, it would change the relations respectively, during the life time of the Pope (in history it was Stephen V.). Perhaps succeding in the quest for reestablishment of already thousand-times mentioned archbishopric of Pannonia could prevent Pope from doing so. For Slavic folks of the Byzantine rite it would probably increase somewhat relation bishop-ruler or so, because ecumenical patriarch had little to do with it.

Yes, Cyrillo-Methodean tradition is still strong here, as was proved this year during the 1150th anniversary.
I have always liked Glagolithic more. Although I think it was Cyril and Methodius themselves who invented Glagolithic.

An interesting event would be WHERE DO YOU LEAN TOWARDS TO? EAST OR WEST? It's not only adopting Latin or Orthodox traditions, it's also the chance to open up a whole new set of tech advances, cultural events and bonuses to the conversion to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Of course, I'm talking post-Schism.

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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:38 pm

I agree, I really liked visits of St. Feliu. Smile

I have always liked Glagolithic more. Although I think it was Cyril and Methodius themselves who invented Glagolithic.
Yes, both Glagolitic and Cyrilic were used to write Old church slavonic, in most of my early chat I was mostly refering to the earliest era anyway, which is closely tied to Glagolitic, which was as you correctly stated invented by the two saints. Both GM and Bulgaria get pounded by Magyars as well as by rest of their neighbours, something that can hardly be described as the golden age of Bulgaria!

That sounds like a great idea César with the event! Would make especially Balkans very interesting. Actually since the way schism is already present in early stardate, there were sort of conflicts of this type in pre-schism era too. Once again Cyril and Methodius, to which didn't take too kindly the archbishop of Salzburg and other german clergy.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:47 pm

to the north of palamos  is another natural paradise.

as event seems fun, but I'm not convinced, it is a decision taken
according to proximity to the two rites(area of influence)and their  moral authority

Croatia is Catholic by Venetian influence and because it is close to Italy,and I find impossible to think of a Catholic Serbia  with her relation with the Byzantine Empire,maybe just an event applicable to the player,but I prefer by default my russia orthodox.

I find very interesting the bishops´s bonuses,I do not think that a pope will openly allow this liturgy in this time frame,but something like the cities CB of the republics may give some play.

I like the idea that Bulgaria triggers the events.
I think we can also think something about Slavic nationalism,..
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:48 am

I agree Iago, relation to religion head and especially religious authority should play important role (below 25 would be okay?), since otherwise the west/east division somewhat followed the border of Western Roman Empire and its Eastern counterpart. Some sort of shifts between power happened before the official schism though, namely once again Great Moravia and Bulgaria.


I do not think that a pope will openly allow this liturgy in this time frame,
Nicholas I. issued papal bull in 868 agreeing to it, while Adrian II. even sent letter Gloria in excelsis Deo in 869 to Rostislav, Svatopluk and Kocel. John VIII. issued "Industriae tuae" papal bull, creating bishopric of Moravia with slavic catholic priests.

The end came with Stephen V. in 885, who forbade it.

Yes, Bulgaria is definite center of orthodox slavic liturgy.
Great Moravia is of catholic slavic liturgy, while sort of cooperating concurent can be the tiny principality of Pannonia. I will repeat myself with this quest, but if player as Kocel can manage to wrestle Srěm (Sirmium) from Bulgarian hands, he can get rid of german clerical influence (archbishopric of Salzburg namely). Recreation of (now slavic) catholic archbishopric of Pannonia would be an obstacle to prevent just simply forbiding slavic liturgy as Stephen did.

something like the cities CB of the republics may give some play.
Sounds like a great idea, definitely food for thoughts!
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:13 pm

Radetzky wrote:Nicholas I. issued papal bull in 868 agreeing to it, while Adrian II. even sent letter Gloria in excelsis Deo in 869 to Rostislav, Svatopluk and Kocel. John VIII. issued "Industriae tuae" papal bull, creating bishopric of Moravia with slavic catholic priests.

The end came with Stephen V. in 885, who forbade it.
I didn´t know.Great.

Perhaps an event to forbide it if archbishopric of Pannonia doesnt exist or is not slavic hands like you said,maybe you can use holy sites, creating a fictional religion, according to its moral authority.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:43 pm

Thanks for the input Iago!

Regarding the quest:
I think if some of the german clerics get angry at the slavs, as they did in history, they could send a petition to pope to forbide slavic liturgy in catholic lands. In meantine there would also be open conflicts, imprisoning of slavic clergy, etc. Depending on whom the holy father likes more, he would agree or not. If he agrees, the slavic catholic priests will be banished (historically to Bulgaria).This option to petition would only fire up once during life time of a Pope (Nicholas I. shouldn't be able to forbide it, to give some time to player). Owning the said archbishopric would prevent such petition.

How to represent situation in Bulgaria might be trickier. If perhaps Bulgarian priests by general were Greeks, that would make it easier. Either when the pupils of Konstantin and Methodius were banished or if asked for, they could be replaced by slavic, creating slavic orthodox subgroup.

Well, don't get me wrong, I also toyed with separate slavic liturgy as religion, but in the end I would rather not do it: They never claimed to be schismatics or to turn away from Pope or Ecumenical patriarch and there were two kinds of slavic liturgy, catholic and orthodox (based on the rites since the schism wasn't de jure present yet).

________________
One idea I came to recently when playing the old gods. Catholic clerics with slavic liturgy tag should be more succesfull on converting pagan west slavs, slavic orthodox at east slavs, and both equaly at south slavs. That should help create historically plausible situation!
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:09 pm

While searching for islamic succesion laws, found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_system

Only appliable to Russians, but I think everyone would welcome some more messy succesions! Very Happy
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:36 am

I don't know about you folks, but one thing I especially miss about late game are Hussites!

Triggering past year 1400, with authority <50, there could be a chain of events. Jan Hus as a great preacher would appear. Council of Constance would put him to death. Thus creating massive rebellion. Player as czech king could join either side, if he joined the catholics, he would lose all the holdings in duchy of bohemia to rebels, who would have free stacks, lead by spawned hussite leader (Jan Žižka z Trocnova, Prokop Holý,..), if he joined them, he would be granted the stacks, immeaditily starting war for religious freedom in HRE. If won, Hussites would be to be left alone, white peace would mean Compacta.

More detailed info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite


All the raiding makes me think, that everyone should be able to raid, non-pagans just the enemy though. Thoughts?
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Radetzky
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by iago6666 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:09 am

if it can limit the ratzias scope, yes

iberia is a good example,if the cid or almanzor can raid another iberian province its ok,

but if they embark their troops and raid one province in iceland then no.
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iago6666
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:10 pm

I have been in Poland and Hungary this last month and I'd very much like to see an overhaul on these areas.
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Cèsar de Quart
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

Post by Radetzky on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:44 pm

That's great to hear, must've been a lovely tip! Yes these two are also in need of major overhaul, especially for 9th century "mess".

I was trying hard to make culture map, failing in the end.Instead I'll probably start a list of nations, with just links to their placement.
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Re: The slavic states and their state in the mod

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