Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

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Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:41 am

The hardest map I've had to do so far. I had to look up the various shapes and misfortunes of the Stem Duchies and the better known Electorates in order to create something that's coherent with both, and that allows for smaller familiar properties like the Wittelsbach properties, the Askanier domains... as well as decide which counties were meant to be Imperial Cities and which ones were to be bishoprics, and which secular and urban lordships were going to be under these bishops. Paderborn, Fulda or Münster are some of them, leaving, of course, the three "Kurs", Kurköln, Kurmainz and Kurtrier, the three Ecclesiastical Electors.

Well, let's see how can we rip it apart. Because the map didn't reach it, Austria is not there. Too bad, but since now they say they're not Germans, that's what they get.

https://redcdn.net/ihimg/a/img189/3748/sr8t.jpg

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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by iago6666 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:13 pm

amazing as always,but i have a question why aachen is in France and not in Germany.

although Aachen is the westernmost city of Germany,it was the place of coronation of the German emperors.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:29 pm

iago6666 wrote:amazing as always,but i have a question why aachen is in France and not in Germany.

although Aachen is the westernmost city of Germany,it was the place of coronation of the German emperors.

Aachen is not in France, never has been. If you mean it was in my map of France, that's just not important. The maps are just for counties, that a county appears in the sketch of France and not in that of Germany has not the slightest importance. This is just for county placement, shape and general idea.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:12 pm

Looks good. Some names alternatives:
Hessen - Oberhessen
Nassau - Niederhessen
Mainz (or Worms) - Rheinhessen
Eger - Vogtland
Lausitz - Niederlausitz
Budissin - Oberlausitz

May be adding a province for Free City of Bremen would be a good idea as it was pretty much important for later Hanseatic history. May be also a province for Dithmarschen.

Also, you can consider possibility to use archaic Old German names forms like Cleve (Kleves), Lübeke (Lübeck), Kiellu (Celle), Wirtemberg (Württemberg) etc. I think it would add a lot of nice historical flavour to the game.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:32 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:Looks good. Some names alternatives:
Hessen - Oberhessen
Nassau - Niederhessen
Mainz (or Worms) - Rheinhessen
Eger - Vogtland
Lausitz - Niederlausitz
Budissin - Oberlausitz

I prefer not to, for several seasons. Most of the titles I put there were counties or jurisdictions at some point, so someone that is count of Nassau could be identified with someone who, in real life, was count of Nassau. Better to have an actual title in the game, even county-wise, than something much more generic or geographic. That's why I treied to get away from naming like "Oberlausitz", "Oberpfaltz" or the forementioned Rheinhessen, Niederhessen, etc. Also, Mainz should definitely be Mainz. After all, there was an Archbishop of Mainz, and whoever controls Mainz and decised to erase the Archbishopric and install himself there would definitely be "count of Mainz".

Also, Rhinehessen and all the Hessen family are overly deterministic. They make sense later in the XIV-XVth Centuries, where Hessen has a long history of domain and property over these places (like the Saxon Oberpfaltz for the Palatinate Wittelsbachs), but as early as 1066, having Mainz be Rheinhessen or some county as important as Nassau (for the sake of the House of Nassau), it's a too much of a stretch in my opinion.

Eger could be Vogtland, there I only took the name of that town, considering that no one was ever "count of Vogtland", but a "count of Eger" is not implausible. There are some areas in Germany that have a long history of "freedom" and granted liberties, which names just won't fit, or would never be picked up by its lord, in a feudal society. It's a bit like the counties in France and Occitania: the area around Toulouse was known as Tolzan, but no one ever was Count of Tolzan. The County was of Toulouse. The same with Carcassonne (Carcassès), Narbona (Narbonès), Bar (Barrois), Empúries (Empordà), Tours (Tourenne), Angers (Anjou) and a long etc. Sometimes it stuck (like Anjou), but most of the times it didn't.

Anyway, as everything, it's open for discussion.

Herr Doctor wrote:May be adding a province for Free City of Bremen would be a good idea as it was pretty much important for later Hanseatic history. May be also a province for Dithmarschen.

That coult be made, although I don't know how much room do we have for city state counties like Bremen. Cologne, for instance, would be another choice to consider, separated from the Kurköln, the Electorate of Köln that belongs to the Archbishop.

Herr Doctor wrote:Also, you can consider possibility to use archaic Old German names forms like Cleve (Kleves), Lübeke (Lübeck), Kiellu (Celle), Wirtemberg (Württemberg) etc. I think it would add a lot of nice historical flavour to the game.

I'm all for Medieval naming, but that's not my area. These choices are Idib's and Solo's to be made.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:02 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:I prefer not to, for several seasons. Most of the titles I put there were counties or jurisdictions at some point, so someone that is count of Nassau could be identified with someone who, in real life, was count of Nassau. Better to have an actual title in the game, even county-wise, than something much more generic or geographic. That's why I treied to get away from naming like "Oberlausitz", "Oberpfaltz" or the forementioned Rheinhessen, Niederhessen, etc. Also, Mainz should definitely be Mainz. After all, there was an Archbishop of Mainz, and whoever controls Mainz and decised to erase the Archbishopric and install himself there would definitely be "count of Mainz".

Also, Rhinehessen and all the Hessen family are overly deterministic. They make sense later in the XIV-XVth Centuries, where Hessen has a long history of domain and property over these places (like the Saxon Oberpfaltz for the Palatinate Wittelsbachs), but as early as 1066, having Mainz be Rheinhessen or some county as important as Nassau (for the sake of the House of Nassau), it's a too much of a stretch in my opinion.

Eger could be Vogtland, there I only took the name of that town, considering that no one was ever "count of Vogtland", but a "count of Eger" is not implausible. There are some areas in Germany that have a long history of "freedom" and granted liberties, which names just won't fit, or would never be picked up by its lord, in a feudal society. It's a bit like the counties in France and Occitania: the area around Toulouse was known as Tolzan, but no one ever was Count of Tolzan. The County was of Toulouse. The same with Carcassonne (Carcassès), Narbona (Narbonès), Bar (Barrois), Empúries (Empordà), Tours (Tourenne), Angers (Anjou) and a long etc. Sometimes it stuck (like Anjou), but most of the times it didn't.
Generally I agree with you as many names are really anachronistic for the game start and something plausible both for early and late game should be found to replace them. As for the cases similar to Vogtland or Dithmarschen the title of "Lord/Herr" is pretty much ok in my opinion, even if such things could not be absolutely historically correct this adds to the game some feeling that you rule some special lands not just another spot on the map.

Cèsar de Quart wrote:That coult be made, although I don't know how much room do we have for city state counties like Bremen. Cologne, for instance, would be another choice to consider, separated from the Kurköln, the Electorate of Köln that belongs to the Archbishop.
I do not think that city of Cologne should be separate province from Archbishopric. It gained its official free city status only in the late 15th century. The city did successfully fought the archbishops in the 13th century and gained de facto independence, but I am not sure if this is really a good reason to grant it a separate province.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:56 am

As I addressed the kingdoms theme in other thread: have you already considered reworking the de jure "kingdoms" systems of the HRE?

The major problem in the game I see now is that instead of weakening the emperor the additional kingdoms (Bavaria, Saxony, Carinthia, Wends) only straightened him and made HRE extremely stable, because it looks like it's much easier for imperial tire lord to control small number of powerful kings-vassals than a lot of small disconnected duchies and counties (with granted bunch of crazed and degenerated rulers Twisted Evil). I think returning to a more "historical" setup here would be much more logical. I mean with historical de jure kingdoms of Germany, Bohemia, Burgundy, Lombardy + plausible Lotharingia (covering the area of Lower and Upper Lorraine + Guelders) and Frisia (historically covering area from Zeeland to Oldenburg with Utrecht but without Guelders; creatable only by the independent Frisian or Dutch duke).
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:51 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:As I addressed the kingdoms theme in other thread: have you already considered reworking the de jure "kingdoms" systems of the HRE?

The major problem in the game I see now is that instead of weakening the emperor the additional kingdoms (Bavaria, Saxony, Carinthia, Wends) only straightened him and made HRE extremely stable, because it looks like it's much easier for imperial tire lord to control small number of powerful kings-vassals than a lot of small disconnected duchies and counties (with granted bunch of crazed and degenerated rulers Twisted Evil). I think returning to a more "historical" setup here would be much more logical. I mean with historical de jure kingdoms of Germany, Bohemia, Burgundy, Lombardy + plausible Lotharingia (covering the area of Lower and Upper Lorraine + Guelders) and Frisia (historically covering area from Zeeland to Oldenburg with Utrecht but without Guelders; creatable only by the independent Frisian or Dutch duke).

One could try making the kingdoms of Bavaria, Saxony, Carinthia and Wendia creatable only if the character is independent. This might solve the issue of the Stem Dukes creating these king tier titles.

Also, in the SWMH setting, the stem duchies were king tier titles with the adress "Duke".
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes, they were formally styled as "dukes" in the mod but I feel that having them as technically "kingdom" title is not correct. My another main concern (except gameplay and titles names) is that such Napoleonic style titles contradict the principles of the feudal hierarchy within the Holy Roman Empire, as only the emperor could create such titles within de jure borders of the Empire, even in post-Wetphalian era (case of the 18th century's Prussia that was proclaimed outside of the Empire). And I do not see really any reason why the emperor would agree to create "Kingdom of Bavaria" that did not have any precedence and the legitimate tradition in the past.

I know there are many discussions on the Paradox boards about such issues with Kingdoms/Empires fictional titles involved. Personally I see the titles system not just as some fancy thing, but rather as the reflection of the feudal sovereignty, hierarchy and tradition. Could such self-proclaimed King of Bavaria legitimately claim sovereignty over other major dukes in the area? I seriously doubt it. This also refers to the SWMH "imperial titles" of "Poland-Lithuania" or "Hungary-Croatia" that should be rather removed or reworked in some logical way, taking in account historical limits of mentioned feudal sovereignty, hierarchy and legitimacy.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:08 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:Yes, they were formally styled as "dukes" in the mod but I feel that having them as technically "kingdom" title is not correct. My another main concern (except gameplay and titles names) is that such Napoleonic style titles contradict the principles of the feudal hierarchy within the Holy Roman Empire, as only the emperor could create such titles within de jure borders of the Empire, even in post-Wetphalian era (case of the 18th century's Prussia that was proclaimed outside of the Empire). And I do not see really any reason why the emperor would agree to create "Kingdom of Bavaria" that did not have any precedence and the legitimate tradition in the past.

I know there are many discussions on the Paradox boards about such issues with Kingdoms/Empires fictional titles involved. Personally I see the titles system not just as some fancy thing, but rather as the reflection of the feudal sovereignty, hierarchy and tradition. Could such self-proclaimed King of Bavaria legitimately claim sovereignty over other major dukes in the area? I seriously doubt it. This also refers to the SWMH "imperial titles" of "Poland-Lithuania" or "Hungary-Croatia" that should be rather removed or reworked in some logical way, taking in account historical limits of mentioned feudal sovereignty, hierarchy and legitimacy.

SWMH lacked coherence in that matter. Adding Hungary-Croatia for gameplay reasons, because it makes sure that the compact unity that were Hungary and Croatia for many centuries remains solid, but then putting Poland-Lithuania in because it's cool, giving way for too many problems and incongruences... was strange. Poland-Lithuania didn't exist even after the Union of Lublin. It was a XVIth Century thing, the coming of the republic and the Golden Liberty... it has little place in CK2.

I agree with you regarding the royal and imperial titles. Also about the de jure setting as a way to "set the stage", but I also think that de jure situation in the start of a bookmark is important, I mean actual de jure setting. Granted, sometimes it causes problems. It's problematic to have Barcelona inside Aragon because it makes Aragon angry at Barcelona for no reason and prevents them to create the bonds they did develop when Aragon had no idea of ownership of anything beyong its own tiny frontiers; it's also problematic to have Barcelona inside de jure France, as it was nominally until the XIIIth Century, because the allmighty king of France then descends with his napoleonic Grande Armée to take over the duchy, which is also ridiculous during most of the game's timeframe (except for the Aragonese Crusade, which failed, and wasn't grounded on these pretentions either). And it is problematic to leave it kingdom-less, I think.

It's just one of many examples of problematic de jure setting, but I think that by talking it out we can solve most of them. I am just not very good at judging the effects of something on a gameplay scale, so I'll have to leave remarks on these matters to other people.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Naoki on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:13 am

talking about these problematics effects: is it possible to add a "special relations" opinion bonus? Like that the ruler of Barcelona and the ruler of Aragon would have, I don't know, +50 on both sides to counter the penalty from desiring a de-iure title plus giving a little extra. All to model the reality.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:01 am

Naoki wrote:talking about these problematics effects: is it possible to add a "special relations" opinion bonus? Like that the ruler of Barcelona and the ruler of Aragon would have, I don't know, +50 on both sides to counter the penalty from desiring a de-iure title plus giving a little extra. All to model the reality.

It's not a bad idea, although I guess that would create some weird situations like "I killed your son and you know it, but you're still my friend because God wills it." xD
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 am

Cèsar de Quart wrote:SWMH lacked coherence in that matter. Adding Hungary-Croatia for gameplay reasons, because it makes sure that the compact unity that were Hungary and Croatia for many centuries remains solid
But I do not think that "empire" rank title really portraits this well. This was a personal union of two crowns and in game it is more accurately portrayed as the union of the two crowns ruled by one monarch, not the hierarchical relations of the sovereign emperor and vassal king (that could happen in case of titular imperial tire title) - this is  a bit absurd in this case. In general I would remove all Christian imperial titles except naturally HRE, Byzantium, "Latin Empire", also may be Hispania, Britannia and Rus' (as there were rulers in those regions who historically claimed sovereignty of "imperial" type).

Cèsar de Quart wrote:I agree with you regarding the royal and imperial titles. Also about the de jure setting as a way to "set the stage", but I also think that de jure situation in the start of a bookmark is important, I mean actual de jure setting. Granted, sometimes it causes problems. It's problematic to have Barcelona inside Aragon because it makes Aragon angry at Barcelona for no reason and prevents them to create the bonds they did develop when Aragon had no idea of ownership of anything beyong its own tiny frontiers; it's also problematic to have Barcelona inside de jure France, as it was nominally until the XIIIth Century, because the allmighty king of France then descends with his napoleonic Grande Armée to take over the duchy, which is also ridiculous during most of the game's timeframe (except for the Aragonese Crusade, which failed, and wasn't grounded on these pretentions either). And it is problematic to leave it kingdom-less, I think.
This indeed looks quite special. The proposition of Naoki could work indeed. The titular king title for the Counts of Barcelona from the start is also an option.


Last edited by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Naoki on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:50 am

Cèsar de Quart wrote:It's not a bad idea, although I guess that would create some weird situations like "I killed your son and you know it, but you're still my friend because God wills it." xD
Seeing how in tPatT the penalty for murdering a close kin is -1000 relations, I don't think that would be a problem :-)
In any case, it would be a lot of work, but it would be a nice solution for other regions. It could help to portray the roughly equal position that Bohemia had in the HRE as opposed to the rebellious Italians, the chance of actually getting a Bohemian to the Imperial Crown through election, etc. Or it could work also the other way around in the regions where there was some special traditional animosity for reasons that CK2 fails to express (don't know any concrete examples though).
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Radetzky on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:19 pm

Chatted with one Dutch friend about the Low Lands, he was surprised about the northern Utrecht. Could be called Oversticht I suppose based on this map?

Bigger picture and the appropiate site: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Nederlanden_in_de_Middeleeuwen
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:00 pm

That was a massive oversight on my part, yes... I'll do the appropriate modifications.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Radetzky on Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:36 am

It's allright César Smile, found one thing that is more concerning after chat with another Dutch folk. You may be aknowledged about it already though, I am not sure, if yes, sorry. On your map there is present Flevoland, land that was "reclaimed" from sea in 1960. Back before St. Lucia's flood it was just a lake.

(comparison 1st-10th century.)
On 14 December 1287 the dike broke killing 50-80 thousands and making Zuiderzee as can be seen in map I posted about Utrecht.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:37 pm

As earlier sent to César and as I mentioned on the slav topic, I think different exonymes for places in CK2 is quite an important factor for immersion.

Therefore I did a little warm up on the HRE map. Of course if you fancy I can go to absurdities, such as Hamburgh when being Scott-gael or Miúnchan for Irish. Of course this is only county names, further work will be needed for the settlements themselves. This is especially important for the early start, where there are Slavs all around east of de-jure HRE.

Spoiler:

For my laziness sake I’ll shorten the languages (cz-czech,pl-polish,sorb-sorbian also known as wendish, fr-french, lat-latin)-because who doesn’t love some extra immersion during the legacy of Rome.

Bautzen- Budyšin (sorb), Budyšín (cz), Budziszyn (pl), Budissa (lat)
Görlitz – Zhorjelc (sorb), Zhořelec (cz), Zgorzelec (pl), Gorlicium (Lat)
Lausitz – Łužica (sorb), Lužice (cz), Łużyce (pl), Lusatia (lat.), Lusace (fr)
Lebus – Lubusz (pl), Lebusium (lat)
Sternberg –
Neumark –depends on the early startdate, because in older times it was part of Lubusz land? Anyway, Terra trans Oderam(lat.), Nowa Marchia (pl), Nouvelle Marche (fr), Nová marka (cz)
Uckermark – Ukrani (sorb), Marchia Wkrzańska (pl), terra U(c)kera (lat), Ukransko (cz)
Werle –
Rostock – Roztoc (polabian Slav), Roztoky (cz), Roztok (pl), Rostochium (lat), Rauðstokku(norse)
Brandenburg (Mittelmark) –Braniborska (sorb), Branibory (cz), Brandenburgia (pl), Brandenburgum (lat.), Brandenborg (norse), Brandenbourg (fr)
If you also mean the Brandenburg city –Brenna (sorb), Branibor (cz), Braniborz (pl.), Brandenburgum (lat.)
Prignitz- Břežansko (sorb, Czech)
Parchim- too “young” for other names.
Mecklenburg – Weligrad (polab. slav), Meklenbursko (cz), Meklemburgia (pl),  Mecklenborg (Danish, norse?), Mecklembourg (fr), Megapolis (lat)
Lübeck – Liubice (polabian slav), Lybæk (danish), Lubek (cz), Lubeca (lat),  Bukowiec (pl), Lýbika (norse?)
Lauenburg – Lauenborg (danish,norse), Lauenburgum (lat)
Hamburg- Hamborg (danish, norse), Hamburgum (lt) Hambourg (fr) Hamboarch (frisian)
Holstein – Holsten (danish), Holštýn (cz), Holsztyn (pl), Holštejnska (sorb.) Holsatia (lat), Holtsetaland (icelandic=>old norse?)
Schleswig – Slesvig (danish),  Slesvík (norse), Szlezwik (pl), Šlesvicko (cz), Sleeswijk (dutch), Slaswik (Frisian), Šleswig (sorb), Slesvicum (lat)
Meissen – Míšeň (cz), Miśnia (pl), Mišno (sorb), Misnia (lat)
Brene- can’t find anything, not even in old maps, possible typo?
Leipzig – Lipsk (sorb. and pl.), Lipsko (cz), Lipsia (lat), Leipsick (fr)
Merseburg – Mjezybor (sorb), Meziboř (cz), Międzybórz (pl), Merseburga (lat), Mersebourg (fr)
Wittenberg – Běła Hora (sorb), Wittenberk (cz) , Wittenberga (polish and latin)
Anhalt- Anhaltska (sorb), Anhaltsko (cz), Anhaltium (lat)
Magdeburg-  Dźěwin (sorb), Děvín (cz), Dziewin (pl). Magdebourg (fr), Magdeburgum (lat)
Altmark – Stara marchia (pl), Stará marka (cz), Antiqua marchia (lat)
Dannenberg – Wejdars (polab. Slav)
Schwerin- Zwěrin (sorb), Zvěřín (cz), Zwierzyn (pl), Suerinum (lat)
Lüneburg – Glain (polab. Slav), Luneburgum (lat), Lunebourg (fr)
Verden-Ferðuborg (norse)
Bremen- Bremy (sorb), Brémy (cz), Brema (polish and latin), Brimar (norse?), Brême (fr)
Plauen- Pławno (sorb), Plavno (cz), Plavia Variscorum (lat)
Schwarzburg- is from 1195, something more suitable to be researched for earlier?
Thüringen – Durinska (sorb), Durynsko (cz), Turyngia (pl), Thuringia (lat), Thuringe (Fr)
Mansfeld-
Blankenburg-
Göttingen – Gotinky (cz), Getynga (pl), Gottinga (lat), Gœttingue (fr)
Goslar-Goslaria (lat)
Dassel-
Lippe- Lupia (lat)
Schauenburg- Schauenbourg (fr)
Celle- Cella (lat)
Hoya-
Oldenburg-  Aldenboarch (frisian), Aldinborg (norse?), Oldenburgum (lat)
Lingen-
Tecklenburg – Tecklenboarch (frisian)
Ostfriesland – Eastfryslân (frisian), Oost-Friesland (dutch), Austur-Frísland (norse), Frisia orientalis (lat.), Frise orientale (fr), there are also czech and polish names, it would be bit obscure though.
Eger- Cheb(cz), Egra(lat.,fr.)
Bayreth- Barout (cz), Baruthum (lat)
Wiltberg- can’t find it anywhere?
Henneberg-
Fulda-
Hessen –Hessenska(sorb), Hesny(cz), Hesja(pl), Hassia (lat), Hesse (fr)
Ziegenhain-
Marburg- Marbourg (fr), Marburk (cz), Marburgum (lat)
Paderborn – Pöddubrunnur (norse),Paderbronna (lat)
Waldeck-
Arnsberg- Arensberg(fr)
Mark- La Marck (fr)
Münster – Munster (frisian, dutch), Monasterium (lat)
Osnabrück- Osnabruga (lat), Osenbrugge (dutch)
Oberstift Utrecht – Oversticht(dutch), Oerstift (frisian)
Geldern – Gelre (dutch and frisian), Gel(d)ria (lat), Gueldre (fr)
Gröningen – Groningen (dutch), Grins (frisian),Groninga (lat), Groningue (fr), Groninky (cz)
Hohenburg-
Nürnberg-  Norimberk (cz), Norymberga(pl), Norimberga(lat)
Bamberg- Bamberk (cz), Nuremberg (fr), Bamberga (lat)
Würzburg- Vircpurk (cz), Wurtzbourg (fr), Herbipolis(lat)
Aschaffenburg- Schaffnaburgum (lat), Aschaffenbourg (fr)
Hanau- Hanava (cz)
Giessen- Giessa (lt)
Nassau – Nasavsko (cz), Nassovia (lat)
Frankfurt- Frankobrod (sorb, czech), Francfort (fr), Francofurtum (lat), Frakkafurða (norse), Frankfort (dutch)
Mainz-  Mohuč (sorb, czech), Moguncja (pl), Moguntiacum (lat), Mayence (fr), Ments (dutch)
Diez- Theodissa (in old start)
Sayn-
Berg- possibly Mons in latin, the Burg castle was Novum Castrum.
Kurköln: Kurfiřství Kolínské (cz), Électorat de Cologne (fr), Electorum Coloniae (lat?), Keur-Keulen (dutch), Elektorat Kolonii (pl).
The city itself: Köln- Kolin (sorb), Kolín (cz), Kolonia (pl), Cologne (fr), Colonia (Aggripina) (lat), Keulen (Dutch and Frisian), Kolni (norse)
Jülich- Juliers (fr), Iuliacum (lat), Gulik (Dutch)
Kleve – Kleef (dutch), Clèves (fr)
Regensburg- Řezno (cz), Rězno (sorb), Ratisbonne (fr), Ratisbona/Castra Regina (lat), Ratyzbona (pl)
Ingolstadt- Ingolstadum/Auripolis (lat)
Ansbach- Onoldum (lat)
Staufen, Hohenlohe, Erbach- nothing
Worms – Vormatia (lat), Wormacja (pl)
Pfalz- Falc (cz), Palatinat rhénam (fr), Palts (dutch, Frisian)
Sponheim-
Trier-Trevír (cz), Trewir (pl), Treviri (it), Trèves (fr), Augusta Treverorum (lat)
Niederbayern- Dolní Bavory (cz), Dolna Bawaria (pl), Bavaria inferior (lat), Neder-Beieren (dutch), Basse-Bavière (french)
Straubing- Štrubina (cz), Sorviodorum (lat)
Abensberg-
Freising- Frisinky (cz), Frisinga (lat), Fryzynga (pl)
Burgau-
Augsburg- Augšpurk (cz), Augsbourg (fr), Augustae Vindelicorum (lat), Ágsborg (norse)
Kempten- Cambodunum (lat)
Innsbruck – Inomostí (cz), Oenipontum(lat)
Andechs-
München- Mnichov (cz), Mnichow (sorb), Munich (french), Monaco di Baviera (italian), Monacum (lat)
Landshut- Landishuta (lat)
Oberbayern- Horní Bavory (cz), Górna Bawaria (pl), Bavaria superior (lat), Opper-Beieren (dutch), Haute-Bavière (fr)
Falkenstein-
Salzburg – Solnohrad (cz), Solnogród (pl), Solnohród (sorb), Salzbourg (fr), Salisburgum (lat), Salisburgo (italian)
Mühldorf-
Ortenburg-
Schärding-
(it would be very helpful for me to see the settlements list once done, since for example Passau-Pasov, etc.)
Ulm- Ulma(lat)
Teck-
Sigmaringen-
Zollern-
Tübingen – Tubinky (cz), Tubinga (lat), Tybinga (pl)
Öttingen-
Laufen-
Baden- Bádensko(cz), Badenia(pl, lat), Bade(fr)
Breisgau- Bryzgowia(pl), Brisgavi (lat?), Breisgouw (dutch?)
Sundgau- Sundgouw(dutch)
Strassburg – Štrasburk (cz), Strasbourg (fr), Straatsburg (dutch),Straasburch (frisian) Argentoratum/Stratœburgus (lat), Strasburg (pl), Strasburgo (italian)
Nordgau-Noordgouw(dutch)
Zweibrücken-Deux-Ponts (fr), Tweebruggen (dutch)
Saarbrücken-Sarrebruck (fr), Saarbruggen (dutch), Saravipons (lat)
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Radetzky
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Radetzky on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:51 pm

Actually, looking at possible exonymes on wiki, I totally forgot one back then fairly significant group. Romansh people! While today they hardly hold on in Switzerland, back then they were even as far as Tyrol. I think that's a good candidate for new culture definitely.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Herr Doctor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:45 pm

Radetzky wrote:As earlier sent to César and as I mentioned on the slav topic, I think different exonymes for places in CK2 is quite an important factor for immersion.

Therefore I did a little warm up on the HRE map. Of course if you fancy I can go to absurdities, such as Hamburgh when being Scott-gael or Miúnchan for Irish. Of course this is only county names, further work will be needed for the settlements themselves. This is especially important for the early start, where there are Slavs all around east of de-jure HRE.
I would rather suggest using the authentic spelling from contemporary writing sources (medieval chronicles, documents) everyone where it is possible. I tried to follow this rule in my Baltic setup proposition.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

Post by Radetzky on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:10 pm

Well that is a great attitude, Herr Doctor, if quite complicated. Except for latin names, I think many names in one language changed dynamically throughout CK2 timeframe, especially now that we have the early startdate.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of the Holy Roman Empire

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