Sketch: New Map of Italy

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Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:34 am

I'm making a new thread so the other one doesn't get messy. Italy, ladies and gentlemen. Some counties can be merged, the scale is bigger than my other maps of France and Spain, so bear in mind that the small counties are actually very small. Any suggestions, remarks, duchy proposals, etc...

PS: You might need to open the image into another window, since it's too wide and the forum doesn't display is properly.
https://redcdn.net/ihimg/a/img443/2255/nkkt.jpg

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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by firelordzuko on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:37 am

I wonder how small counties such as Aversa, Amalfi or Venice would work in game. IIRC, none of the counties on the SWMH map were that small, and I found it rather small nevertheless. I hated Venice in EU3, where you have to zoom all the way in and click half a hundred times to open the province screen. Otherwise, the map looks excellent.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:48 am

firelordzuko wrote:I wonder how small counties such as Aversa, Amalfi or Venice would work in game. IIRC, none of the counties on the SWMH map were that small, and I found it rather small nevertheless. I hated Venice in EU3, where you have to zoom all the way in and click half a hundred times to open the province screen. Otherwise, the map looks excellent.

Aversa and Amalfi are really small in the SWMH map.

Anyway, this is just a sketch. Once this map is drawn on the actual map, when a province is too small (like Amalfi) or too strangely looking (like Malaspina), these things will be "adapted".

And Venice, I haven't actually drawn it yet. But more than an island in front of the coast, I imagine Venice as an island eating a bit of the Trevisan coast.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:38 am

Wonderful work.

I do not like how "Istria" name was used however, because historically the region is more associated with Venetian Istria (Rovigno) actually.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:18 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:Wonderful work.

I do not like how "Istria" name was used however, because historically the region is more associated with Venetian Istria (Rovigno) actually.

That's one of the areas I must improve. Would Trieste deserve a county?
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:42 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:That's one of the areas I must improve. Would Trieste deserve a county?
Why not? It was not important until early modern time, but it would feat this map setup well. Reserving Venice some space to conquer.Smile

Your 'Istria" province can be named Pisino (an important medieval town and fortress). Rovigno can stay the same or can be named "Istria" (including other baronies of Parenzo, Pola, Umago and Capodistria).
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:20 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:That's one of the areas I must improve. Would Trieste deserve a county?
Why not? It was not important until early modern time, but it would feat this map setup well. Reserving Venice some space to conquer.Smile

Your 'Istria" province can be named Pisino (an important medieval town and fortress). Rovigno can stay the same or can be named "Istria" (including other baronies of Parenzo, Pola, Umago and Capodistria).

Thanks, I'll rework it right now.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:39 pm

Also a small note not directly related to the map: can you also please add Dalmatian culture to the region from Zadar to Ragusa and Cattaro/Kotor? I really miss this one at the Adriatics. Having the elites of the Republic of Ragusa as Dalmatian would be also great.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:45 pm

Herr Doctor wrote:Also a small note not directly related to the map: can you also please add Dalmatian culture to the region from Zadar to Ragusa and Cattaro/Kotor? I really miss this one at the Adriatics. Having the elites of the Republic of Ragusa as Dalmatian would be also great.

It's certainly better than having them Italian or Slavic.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Grallonsphere on Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:38 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:... Any suggestions, remarks, duchy proposals, etc...



Perhaps this is the time to broach the subject of what I call 'natural borders'. Because of the static nature of the 'de jure' mechanics you can't change them in game so if you're like me and like to role play - once I've managed to create a kingdom I like to redraw the duchies borders. Quite frankly most of them, while historically accurate, are very unwieldy - if not downright ugly. So I always end up having to spend a considerable amount of work redrawing most borders of France, England, Germany and Byzantium since those are what I play most.

So my point is - why not draw 'de jure' borders that mirror the surrounding natural borders (rivers, mountains, etc)? My reasoning is - if I was a lord of those times i would try to acheive those natural borders - so since we can't do that dynamically in game it makes sense - to me at least - to assign them from the get go.

As an example take the current ToG vanilla borders in the byzantine Empire. The kingdom of Greece encroaches halfway on Anatolia - the kingdom of Anatolia is a mere rump - you have Persia going all the way to the western Caspian. As for the duchies it's even worse. in my mind each 'de jure' duchy should be as compact and easily defensible as possible. And i'm not a big fan of the gazillion 'science fiction empires' either. It's my opinion the mod should have only 2 'de jure' empires: Western Rroman Empire & Eastern Rroman Empire - along the lines of the Theodosius division of 395 - that's it.

Well we can discuss further. Btw I like your map Cesar.

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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:21 pm

Grallonsphere wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:... Any suggestions, remarks, duchy proposals, etc...



Perhaps this is the time to broach the subject of what I call 'natural borders'.  Because of the static nature of the 'de jure' mechanics you can't change them in game so if you're like me and like to role play - once I've managed to create a kingdom I like to redraw the duchies borders.  Quite frankly most of them, while historically accurate, are very unwieldy - if not downright ugly.  So I always end up having to spend a considerable amount of work redrawing most borders of France, England, Germany and Byzantium since those are what I play most.

So my point is - why not draw 'de jure' borders that mirror the surrounding natural borders (rivers, mountains, etc)?  My reasoning is - if I was a lord of those times i would try to acheive those natural borders - so since we can't do that dynamically in game it makes sense - to me at least - to assign them from the get go.

As an example take the current ToG vanilla borders in the byzantine Empire.  The kingdom of Greece encroaches halfway on Anatolia - the kingdom of Anatolia is a mere rump - you have Persia going all the way to the western Caspian.  As for the duchies it's even worse.  in my mind each 'de jure' duchy should be as compact and easily defensible as possible.  And i'm not a big fan of the gazillion 'science fiction empires' either.  It's my opinion the mod should have only 2 'de jure' empires: Western Rroman Empire & Eastern Rroman Empire - along the lines of the Theodosius division of 395 - that's it.

Well we can discuss further.  Btw I like your map Cesar.

I like the Empire of Persia. And I think it's defendable. Same for Russia, but that's another matter.

I'll talk about these matters with more detail later, now I'm on a hurry.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by iago6666 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:21 pm

about dalmatia i think this map is relevant for the 867 start:
http://www.vrilo-mudrosti.hr/karte/vm-karta-hrvatska%20u%20doba%20kneza%20Trpimira%20845-864.jpg

Croatia between 845-864

and another one about the bisophrics between 8 -11 centuries(I think my hrvatski is worse than my english)

http://www.vrilo-mudrosti.hr/karte/vm-karta-crkva%20za%20narodnih%20vladara%208-11%20st.jpg

for not being a believer I'm becoming an expert Cool 
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Herr Doctor on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:40 pm

Btw, have you considered making San Marino just simply an independent city/barony with titular republic title?
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:17 am

Herr Doctor wrote:Btw, have you considered making San Marino just simply an independent city/barony with titular republic title?

Yes, why not. The only problem is that the county's owner will steamroll San Marino on day one, but who cares. As long as non-merchant republics are made cool, they're dead to me. Except for Ulm, Florence and Milan, those three kick ass.

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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:02 pm

Grallonsphere wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:... Any suggestions, remarks, duchy proposals, etc...



Perhaps this is the time to broach the subject of what I call 'natural borders'.  Because of the static nature of the 'de jure' mechanics you can't change them in game so if you're like me and like to role play - once I've managed to create a kingdom I like to redraw the duchies borders.  Quite frankly most of them, while historically accurate, are very unwieldy - if not downright ugly.  So I always end up having to spend a considerable amount of work redrawing most borders of France, England, Germany and Byzantium since those are what I play most.

So my point is - why not draw 'de jure' borders that mirror the surrounding natural borders (rivers, mountains, etc)?  My reasoning is - if I was a lord of those times i would try to acheive those natural borders - so since we can't do that dynamically in game it makes sense - to me at least - to assign them from the get go.

As an example take the current ToG vanilla borders in the byzantine Empire.  The kingdom of Greece encroaches halfway on Anatolia - the kingdom of Anatolia is a mere rump - you have Persia going all the way to the western Caspian.  As for the duchies it's even worse.  in my mind each 'de jure' duchy should be as compact and easily defensible as possible.  And i'm not a big fan of the gazillion 'science fiction empires' either.  It's my opinion the mod should have only 2 'de jure' empires: Western Rroman Empire & Eastern Rroman Empire - along the lines of the Theodosius division of 395 - that's it.

Well we can discuss further.  Btw I like your map Cesar.

Well, I've though about that, but I'm afraid I don't really agree. There are two way you can think of the "de jure" setup:

1 - De real, actual "de jure" setup, that is, these places where the Duke of X felt with authority, or that they were rightfully his territories, or that people in that area understood that the Duke of X was their "natural liege".

2 - A device to force the game to play a bit more historical. Making a duchy of Foix that encompasses all the Foix possessions in the late XIV-XVth Centuries falls into this cathegory. A duchy of Campagne that falls over Blois also does.

***

That said, duchies don't need to be compact defendible places. Say that to the Palsgraves of the Rhine and their constellation of small disperse holdings all over the place. The map of the Palatinate and the Wittelsbach possessions looks as if Herr Wittelsbach had taken some red and blue corn flakes and then sneezed against a map of Germany.



I've never had a problem with de jure setups, and I haven't been annoyed by them. Where de jure duchies are not important for Christians, like Spain, if the Grandee system works as proposed, we can make them either fit the taifas or follow geographic patterns. After all, rivers can be, but needn't be, frontiers, the same way mountains can, but not always, unite, more than separate.

A big river like the Rhine is a boundary, but it's also a way in. Both sides of the Rhine are very close, but at the same time the river is such an obstacle to armies in general that political frontiers tend follow it... but not always. It's all a matter of perspective and context. The Pyrinees are frontiers in some parts (the Aragonese Pyrinees are especially impassable) but not in others (the Catalan Pyrinees are very permeable). The Alps are an obstacle to large empires but no problem for everyday people.

So the geographic frontiers are a bit tricky. .
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Grallonsphere on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:41 pm

Cèsar de Quart wrote:
Well, I've though about that, but I'm afraid I don't really agree. There are two way you can think of the "de jure" setup:

1 - De real, actual "de jure" setup, that is, these places where the Duke of X felt with authority, or that they were rightfully his territories, or that people in that area understood that the Duke of X was their "natural liege".

2 - A device to force the game to play a bit more historical. Making a duchy of Foix that encompasses all the Foix possessions in the late XIV-XVth Centuries falls into this cathegory. A duchy of Campagne that falls over Blois also does.


As I said it seems to me a monarch should be able to redraw borders within his realm. The kings of France did this continuously - raising as apanages (like Orléans) this or that territory. Another example is Normandy - which in 867 didn't even exist. So since we cannot do that with CKII - unless it's possible through events? - we should avoid to etch in stone borders that became so at a later date. I'd give core 'de jure' to 1-2 counties per 'historical' duchies - and everything else to a 'domaine royal' super duchy - belonging to the monarch - which he could then parcel at will - or whenever he couldn't hold on to it...





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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Ixor_Drakar on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:00 pm

The winter king does it through events.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:01 am

Grallonsphere wrote:
Cèsar de Quart wrote:
Well, I've though about that, but I'm afraid I don't really agree. There are two way you can think of the "de jure" setup:

1 - De real, actual "de jure" setup, that is, these places where the Duke of X felt with authority, or that they were rightfully his territories, or that people in that area understood that the Duke of X was their "natural liege".

2 - A device to force the game to play a bit more historical. Making a duchy of Foix that encompasses all the Foix possessions in the late XIV-XVth Centuries falls into this cathegory. A duchy of Campagne that falls over Blois also does.


As I said it seems to me a monarch should be able to redraw borders within his realm.  The kings of France did this continuously - raising as apanages (like Orléans) this or that territory.  Another example is Normandy - which in 867 didn't even exist.  So since we cannot do that with CKII - unless it's possible through events? - we should avoid to etch in stone borders that became so at a later date.  I'd give core 'de jure' to 1-2 counties per 'historical' duchies - and everything else to a 'domaine royal' super duchy - belonging to the monarch - which he could then parcel at will - or whenever he couldn't hold on to it...


Events can do it. Also, history for counties allows to portray de jure drift, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, most great duchies did exist at TOG start (most), since they were of Carolingian origin. But I understand your point.
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P.S. Hello

Post by JCVocke on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:28 pm

Events can indeed modify the De-Jure map quite nicely.  I've got a little something in mind to already do that....

Although Right now I have relegated my efforts to Duchies drifting into and out of Kingdoms and still have a few 'quirks' to work out of the system.  I had hoped to make some method of Changing the Ducal Setup, and I have few ideas.

You know, I do still have one major quirk to work out, but I'll post what I've got into a folder in the Dropbox when I get home from work.  The code has been running on my testing game without crashes, and although it still needs a considerable amount of balancing, and I still need to implement Grand Duchies, it works and works pretty well.
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Re: Sketch: New Map of Italy

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