The Holy Roman Empire

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The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Holy Roman Empire, Batman!

Ruuward mentioned in the main forum that the HRE didn't have to be doomed from the start and that "nerfing" was not really needed. I say otherwise and I post my thoughts on the matter here so that we can give some though on how to better portray the Holy Roman Empire.

***

The problem with having a 867 start is that it prevents later realistic development.

The HRE's decay and dissolution was a long road paved by Otto III, Henry the Lion and his arch-enemy Barbarossa, Frederick II... as well as other in-personal factors. I like to think of Frederick II's denial of city rights in order to win over the nobility as one of the main factors (Fred the Awesome cancelled his main source of support and taxes: towns that wanted to escape baronial control. It wasn't a bad move on the short run, after all Frederick II had all of Sicily as his playground and didn't need Germany at all, or anything else for that matter, since Sicily was some kind of paradise. Poisoned paradise, after his death), but there were others: Emperor Henry's stern opposition to the Church, after Otto III based his Empire on the Church in Germany, using it and its resources as the backbone of his rule and the base of his reach; the Long Interregnum that was a free buffet for the barons and their feudal dream; the discredit of the Imperial crown, especially after some bad emperors like Otto of Brunswick and his defeat at Bouvines...

But to sum up, the game is utterly unable to represent any of this. Except Otto's discredit after loosing at Bouvines. But he won't be deposed by ingame mechanics, unlessthey are made. Not even the very basic Medieval concept of leaning on towns to counter the nobility is actually very feasable. Charters don't exist, and towns under a lord's jurisdiction can't be "taken from him". A decision to pass a charter that would put the town under royal sovereignity would be cool, but then every year you'd get "emails" from the said lord saying "give me back the town", and after five years he'd hate your living guts, which is also unrealistic if you see how did these things happen. Lords also profited from free cities because of the trade and opportunities they generated, and they didn't usually take over them because they were very able to defend themselves.

And now that we're on the topic, something like the Lombard League or the Tuscan League are impossible to recreate and if they do appear by event, they're doomed to loose. Frederick Barbarossa didn't really loose those wars, but it was a conflict he simply could not win. In the game, the actual politics that drove the conflict, its motivations, and also tthe reason why the Emperor lost in the end, are out of the picture. Despite the Republic DLC, the game still cannot make republics and lordships interactuate in a realistic or plausible manner.

So, is it good that the HRE gets de-stabilised by default? I think so. It was a mess, especially in the later game after 1200. Before that it wasn't really that much different from any other western kingdom. Also, large portions listed as Imperial regions didn't really move a finger for the Emperor, ever. Like Provence.

Of course, the HRE doesn't exist until Otto I, and that means the Carolingian kingdom of Germany can keep on existing. But since it didn't last long, we need flavour and sauce, we need to make it appealing and to give the player of any Carolingian kingdom a chance into creating a Holy Roman Empire. That won't be necessarily in Germany, it could be in Italy or France. Charlemagne's legacy is everywhere.

But for the 1000 AD start, the mechanics and the setup must be different. The HRE cannot be treated like any other medieval kingdom because even if it was in essence, it wasn't in theory.
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Evander on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:43 pm

The HRE in France !? That's blasphemy !

More seriously, I also think the HRE deserves some very specific mechanisms (even more than the Guelphes/Guibellins system) and a specific way for a Karling king to create the HRE would be nice indeed but creating the HRE anywhere would be problematic with a dejure HRE empire. I'm a huge partisan of keeping a HRE dejure empire by the 867 start BTW (even if it's not that historical).

Also after playing some hands-off games in vanilla 1.10 I never saw AI creating HRE, the carolingian kingdoms always end up to a huge mess (one german king with capital in italy having a small part of germany, italy and west francia while one of his cousins keeps a huge lotharingia in the middle ...
When TPTT would run on 1.10 that will be a big concern for 867 start.
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Solo on Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:51 pm

A decision to pass a charter that would put the town under royal sovereignity would be cool, but then every year you'd get "emails" from the said lord saying "give me back the town", and after five years he'd hate your living guts, which is also unrealistic if you see how did these things happen
Well the request trigger could still be amended with a flag once you pass the decision. Only problem is, it would have to target the county (or area) rather than characters because characters die and the flag would disappear before the end of the intended timeframe. Idib will probably know better than me if a county local modifier can effectively be checked to see if the vassal can request the city back or not.

So, is it good that the HRE gets de-stabilised by default? I think so. It was a mess, especially in the later game after 1200. Before that it wasn't really that much different from any other western kingdom. Also, large portions listed as Imperial regions didn't really move a finger for the Emperor, ever. Like Provence.
Some regions are just too far away to be viable in such a large political entity. The fact that they are a foreign culture doesn't explain everything because they were already de facto independent from the kingdom of Burgundy in the last quarter of the Xth century. The reconquest of the muslim stronghold only accelerated the process. Far away + different culture group + own ambitions/local prestige (in this case pretigious past) = no love for the liege.

There's probably something that can be done with the number of triggers (distance, culture, religion, reliationships) and the flexibility the faction system offer. Waging war against your liege really was the very last thing they resorted to, unless there was a very good opportunity (like Savoie during the third crusade and the interregnum). On the other hand, some of those entities stayed in the empire without ever providing the emperor with anything. You could have sort of a loyalist faction granting full power (core culture, close family, proximity), and faction circles triggered by distance and culture (or religion alone) that worked their own agenda (aka less or no troop for the emperor). Not sure you could make them join local ones, but they could at least represent the degree of authority they recognize.
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:33 am

Solo wrote:
On the other hand, some of those entities stayed in the empire without ever providing the emperor with anything. You could have sort of a loyalist faction granting full power (core culture, close family, proximity), and faction circles triggered by distance and culture (or religion alone) that worked their own agenda (aka less or no troop for the emperor). Not sure you could make them join local ones, but they could at least represent the degree of authority they recognize.

Exactly! That's CK2's feudalism system's major flaw! Everyone giving troops to the liege lord. Otto of Brunswick couldn't have possibly lost the battle of Bouvines in CK2!

I wonder if factions could be used to represent Imperial Circles. They don't appear until a bit later in the game, but they can represent local factions. While they could be applied to other kingdoms (basically every domain with several de jure unities smaller than the domain itself), they can come in very handy for the HRE. Saxon Circle, Bavarian Circle, Burgundian Circle... they have a leader and an aggenda, and if they are strong enough, they can choose "not to help the liege".

But it may be a piece of coding idealism from my part...
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Ixor_Drakar on Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:24 am

It would be nice if the system in the Westeros mod could work. Everyone going independent and choosing if they will support a war. The problem is when everyone goes independent France or another power might pick off a province or two. Not to mention it wouldn't work for defensive wars.
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by Cèsar de Quart on Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:59 am

Ixor_Drakar wrote:It would be nice if the system in the Westeros mod could work. Everyone going independent and choosing if they will support a war. The problem is when everyone goes independent France or another power might pick off a province or two. Not to mention it wouldn't work for defensive wars.

But not always succession meant war. As said before, war was the last resort for everyone.

Events about Diet deliberations would be in place. You pick sides, etc. The Westeros system could work well here, if the country divides in the aforementined "circles" or existing factions as temporary titles.
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

Post by iago6666 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:41 pm

-Lothair II died in 869 he left no legitimate children,( but one illegitimate son, Hugh)
in 870 The western half of Lotharingia went to West Francia and the eastern half to East Francia
     
    I think this  must be represented someway:
   
              *Make Lothair II unhealthy and not very fertile,and make  Louis the German and Charles the Bald his heirs,give the player a option to legitimate Hugh(Ia never)

               *make an event(don´t know if it´s possible)

-Crazy idea about the charters:

               *create a titular tittle one level behind the giver(ex:titular name imperial city)
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Re: The Holy Roman Empire

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